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How Green Are You?

Our air, water and dirt are all dramatically improved over the last 50, 40, 30, 20, 10 years.

Struggling with monolithic, over-generalized speak yet again. Define "our".

The wholesale slaughterings of the 5000 years prior to Teddy Roosevelt no longer occur. Our cities are no longer rivers of filth, blanketed in a layer of nasty wood, coal and manure smoke.

Right. Let's ignore the fish that have been found with multiple heads in streams off Lake Athabasca.

We've even cleaned up naturally occurring nastiness, including marine issues. Those beautiful oil slicks off the West coast that were an eyesore before we got all dirty and turned them into plastics, those were the good old days eh? And those caves belching methane gas.

See above.

My "generalizations with no justification" are all quantifiable and documented. Your fear mongering is not.
They aren't justified, because I have repeatedly provided proof proving the contrary. "Fear mongering"-- cute. I feel like I'm having this discussion with Sarah Palin.




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Even Sarah's going green.

Palin-Green-Eggs-and-Ham.jpg
 
Right. Let's ignore the fish that have been found with multiple heads in streams off Lake Athabasca.

More cherry picking, fear mongering. Simple formula: something bad happened 'insert place here' and claim it as undeniable proof the world is getting ever dirtier and that we need to make dramatic changes on top of the already dramatic, far overreaching, so meaningless and unimpactful but golly they sure make me feel good changes we have in place.
 
Ive spoken to several climate scientists, with works published in Science and Nature, they've all told me climate change is real. At this point we're trying to understand how it will affect us. One very respected person told me the real effects like eastern seaboard inundation, he believes, will be seen in three to five hundred years.

Who is to blame? Truth is, we need oil and gas. We arent technologically beyond it at this point. I think the real question is what happens when China and India have a similar quality of life as the United States? Can our environment handle 2 billion more cars? 50 times more fossil use?
 
And why do you have a problem with me not narrowing it down? You asked to name any example, and I did.

This is what Frank does. Starts an argument then changes his argument and the specifics of it as he gets proven wrong. He does this all the time.
I think it's because he just so smart
 
Struggling with monolithic, over-generalized speak yet again. Define "our".



Right. Let's ignore the fish that have been found with multiple heads in streams off Lake Athabasca.



See above.


They aren't justified, because I have repeatedly provided proof proving the contrary. "Fear mongering"-- cute. I feel like I'm having this discussion with Sarah Palin.




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You guys are talking past each other. The fact that economic development is necessary for bringing people to the table is hard to dispute. So is the fact the developed countries tend to fix many of the environmental problems that the developing process caused in their own countries.

None of that is relevant to what Dalamon is saying. The global environment is deteriorating, and hoping that things will just work themselves out is a very counterproductive mentality and is, at the end of the day, just a faith based statement. We are heading toward a serious environmental crisis, and no amount of development is going to magically solve it. It will require purposeful collective action from all of us.
 
You guys are talking past each other. The fact that economic development is necessary for bringing people to the table is hard to dispute. So is the fact the developed countries tend to fix many of the environmental problems that the developing process caused in their own countries.

None of that is relevant to what Dalamon is saying. The global environment is deteriorating, and hoping that things will just work themselves out is a very counterproductive mentality and is, at the end of the day, just a faith based statement. We are heading toward a serious environmental crisis, and no amount of development is going to magically solve it. It will require purposeful collective action from all of us.

This idea Frank has of the world being the cleanest it's ever been is the type of mentality that perpetuates our environmental crisis in general. "Fear mongering" accusations are a neoliberalist pacifier used for self-assurance.


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This is what Frank does. Starts an argument then changes his argument and the specifics of it as he gets proven wrong. He does this all the time.
I think it's because he just so smart

Well smart, until someone calls him out on it.


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More cherry picking, fear mongering.

1) so are you going to define "our"? Probably not-- Cuz you realized that argument is a dead end for you.
2) not cherry picking-- moreso just picking off one (of many) examples off the top of my head that 100% deconstructs your argument. You call it fear mongering purely because it questions your simplistic, monolithic, black-and-white view of environmental pollution, free of any nuanced analysis whatsoever.

Simple formula: something bad happened 'insert place here' and claim it as undeniable proof the world is getting ever dirtier and that we need to make dramatic changes on top of the already dramatic, far overreaching, so meaningless and unimpactful but golly they sure make me feel good changes we have in place.

More like:

"The world is the cleanest it's ever been"
"Umm, what do you mean"
"Prove one area of the world that isn't cleaner"
"Oceans"
"Narrow it down"
*Dal names several localized examples*
**Dal then repeatedly asserts that while some areas have gotten cleaner, others have gotten worse. Worldwide pollution is nuanced, multi-factorial, and it's moronic to generalize something across an entire planet**


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None of that is relevant to what Dalamon is saying. The global environment is deteriorating, and hoping that things will just work themselves out is a very counterproductive mentality and is, at the end of the day, just a faith based statement. We are heading toward a serious environmental crisis, and no amount of development is going to magically solve it. It will require purposeful collective action from all of us.

That simply is not true. We've been working for decades to reverse former issues and have made serious progress. The developing countries still have issues to work out but the developed countries have pretty much conquered our environmental problems. There are localized problems that arise with new industry, as usual, but that's about it. We're now into the phase where things are taken way overboard and have little to no impact and create resentment that gets in the way of helping where we can actually make a difference.

We've been told for decades that we're destroying the world despite the opposite being true. I don't expect people by and large to reverse that thinking for another 30 years at least, but the evidence to support a change in mindset is clearly there.
 
1) so are you going to define "our"? Probably not-- Cuz you realized that argument is a dead end for you.
2) not cherry picking-- moreso just picking off one (of many) examples off the top of my head that 100% deconstructs your argument. You call it fear mongering purely because it questions your simplistic, monolithic, black-and-white view of environmental pollution, free of any nuanced analysis whatsoever.



More like:

"The world is the cleanest it's ever been"
"Umm, what do you mean"
"Prove one area of the world that isn't cleaner"
"Oceans"
"Narrow it down"
*Dal names several localized examples*
**Dal then repeatedly asserts that while some areas have gotten cleaner, others have gotten worse. Worldwide pollution is nuanced, multi-factorial, and it's moronic to generalize something across an entire planet**


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Our air, water and earth are all cleaner by and large. I'm not justifying your nonsense with any more of a response. You're starting point is a world in crisis, which is nothing short of fanatical. TBH, your angry, antagonistic response is somewhat expected. You environmentalists tend to get very upset when anyone dares to suggest things have gotten cleaner and cleaner.

Just like the anti-gun crowd, you'll continue pushing and pushing until you cause so much blowback that it all backfires in your faces. Fanaticism has a way of exposing itself.
 
Our air, water and earth are all cleaner by and large.

D'awwww, backtracking now are we? better than nothing I spose, even though you continue to avoid defining who you mean by "our"-- cuz there are swaths of populations where your claim simply isn't the case.

I'm not justifying your nonsense with any more of a response.

Good, Cuz you're really making a fool of yourself here.

You're starting point is a world in crisis, which is nothing short of fanatical.

Your starting point was the entire world is cleaner that it's ever been, which is nothing short of stupid.


TBH, your angry, antagonistic response is somewhat expected. You environmentalists tend to get very upset when anyone dares to suggest things have gotten cleaner and cleaner.

Expect antagonism when your first reply to my post is belittling my stance because I'm a college student. You neoliberalists tend to get very upset when anyone questions your insatiable pursuit of acclaiming wealth, and the ramifications that are caused because of it.

Just like the anti-gun crowd, you'll continue pushing and pushing until you cause so much blowback that it all backfires in your faces. Fanaticism has a way of exposing itself.

Likewise.



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That simply is not true. We've been working for decades to reverse former issues and have made serious progress. The developing countries still have issues to work out but the developed countries have pretty much conquered our environmental problems. There are localized problems that arise with new industry, as usual, but that's about it. We're now into the phase where things are taken way overboard and have little to no impact and create resentment that gets in the way of helping where we can actually make a difference.

We've been told for decades that we're destroying the world despite the opposite being true. I don't expect people by and large to reverse that thinking for another 30 years at least, but the evidence to support a change in mindset is clearly there.

I think you're mixing up two different things. Developed countries take better care of their own back yards, but that does not mean they're tackling the global effects of human development. Dumping millions of tons of plastic waste into the ocean makes for cleaner streets, but it is disastrous for the ocean environment, which make up the vast majority of living space on Earth. And while we don't have horse manure covered streets anymore, we do have power plants that dump astonishing amounts of pollutants into the atmosphere. You can make the argument that China is even more polluting due to their lower level of development, and you would be correct. But the fact that China will eventually clean up its own back yard does not negate the fact that they are contributing significantly to global pollution and climate change compared to their pre-development. Hell, even low-orbit is getting so polluted that it puts future missions in jeopardy. Again, that is not related to keeping your streets litter free.

I get what you're saying, I really do. But I think we're all here in favor of economic development and continuing progress. What we disagree on is the approach. The small economic cost incurred by sound environmental regulations or grass root cultural embrace of environmental values is well worth it. Principles of individual choice and whathaveyou are well and good. But why not try to steer those choices toward positive and beneficial values and outcomes? The argument that things will just work themselves out surely can apply just as well to economic development as it would to environmental awareness!
 
I get what you're saying, I really do. But I think we're all here in favor of economic development and continuing progress. What we disagree on is the approach. The small economic cost incurred by sound environmental regulations or grass root cultural embrace of environmental values is well worth it. Principles of individual choice and whathaveyou are well and good. But why not try to steer those choices toward positive and beneficial values and outcomes? The argument that things will just work themselves out surely can apply just as well to economic development as it would to environmental awareness!


The problem is we don't have sound environmental regulations. We have bat **** crazy legislation that at times is almost impossible to understand and can actually do more environmental harm than good. Proper legislation waits for feasible technology to come along and then we enact it. Doing it in reverse is a tool for big business to make an *** load of money off of us while not having much of an impact, if not a negative impact.

You think my preference to wait and let technology fix things is Pollyanna-ish, but that's exactly what has cleaned up our issues in the past. Vehicle emissions for NOx have been reduced 99% from the first standard. That's without calculating the reduction from the unregulated vehicles to the first standard. We didn't force these onto the manufacturers even though we take face time when the legislation get updated. Detroit progresses and tells us what standards they can meet and then we write a law.

The same goes for power plants. The new gas plants are incredibly low emitting. A massive plant down from about 25,000 tons per year of NOx to a negligible 400. Similar with CO, particluates, etc. Many coal plants no longer landfill ash as it's sold off to build roads. That displaces pollution from huge engine driven kiln lime manufacturing plants.

There are already economic incentives for regulated industry to innovate: higher revenues and an edge on the competition. Let 'em innovate and then pass a law. At the end of the day that's about the only thing that makes a difference. The rest of the stuff, the government campaigns and whatnot are like swatting at flies in a landfill.

If you don't want plastics going out to sea there is a simple solution. Ban it. They'll have to go somewhere, which will get expensive, and people will choose to waste less or pay the costs to recycle more.



I think you're mixing up two different things. Developed countries take better care of their own back yards, but that does not mean they're tackling the global effects of human development. Dumping millions of tons of plastic waste into the ocean makes for cleaner streets, but it is disastrous for the ocean environment, which make up the vast majority of living space on Earth. And while we don't have horse manure covered streets anymore, we do have power plants that dump astonishing amounts of pollutants into the atmosphere. You can make the argument that China is even more polluting due to their lower level of development, and you would be correct. But the fact that China will eventually clean up its own back yard does not negate the fact that they are contributing significantly to global pollution and climate change compared to their pre-development. Hell, even low-orbit is getting so polluted that it puts future missions in jeopardy. Again, that is not related to keeping your streets litter free.

I'm not a global policy maker and there's nothing I can do to change anything in somebody else's backyard. Besides, the world survived us so I think it will survive China just fine. This time around it has the added advantage that we already showed China how to do it so they have low hanging fruit to copy.

At home, we're clean enough. If you want any more from me then raise my costs and I'll adjust accordingly. Raising the gas tax would be the best place to start. It's simple solutions like that that work. Convincing a small portion of the population to splurge on solar power isn't going to make a dent.
 
Hate to say it, but Franklins scenario is the most likely to play out In my opinion. Well continue to consume and use natural resources and the most likely thing to improve our environment is human progress. Capitalisn won boys. Get used to it!

That said, i dont the world can support 5 or 6 billion people living an American standard of living.
 
Hate to say it, but Franklins scenario is the most likely to play out In my opinion. Well continue to consume and use natural resources and the most likely thing to improve our environment is human progress. Capitalisn won boys. Get used to it!

That said, i dont the world can support 5 or 6 billion people living an American standard of living.

I don't have time to respond to franklin's post atm, but I just wanted to point out that we're all capitalists here. That's not the point of disagreement. It is about whether it is better to try to direct environmental outcomes or wait for them to happen more organically.
 
Anyway, getting back to being green, I don't see why everyone gets up in a fuss about it when technology is always the solution and will solve the problems in there own due time. At the end of the day, all the hubbub doesn't change a thing.

The problem with this thinking is that technology is not a self organizing or self inventing entity. It is spurred by perceived need. If there is no perceived need to improve technology to take care of the situation, how will it be remedied?
 
I don't have time to respond to franklin's post atm, but I just wanted to point out that we're all capitalists here. That's not the point of disagreement. It is about whether it is better to try to direct environmental outcomes or wait for them to happen more organically.

I see what you're saying and I wasn't very clear in my last post - sorry. I was trying to relate environmental issues to the bigger picture. My view is climate change and environmental degradation is inevitable. The reason being is our entire economic system depends on fossil fuels and natural resources. We simply don't have the technology to ween ourselves off of them. So then why are we even having conversations over all of this? Well, that's just it, our only resolution to pollution at this point in human history is not innovation - at least not yet - it's reduction. Using less! But that's the problem. Our economic system is based on people spending more money and environmental conservation is based on people spending less! They are antithetical. So what again, what can we do? Unfortunately, we are humans with strong wants and needs. We also have powerful special interest groups that make us feel inadequate, feel pressure to keep up with our neighbors, and to want what we don't really need. We buy things that don't really make us happy. But why? I can't answer that question, it's different for everybody, but what I do know is it is bad for the environment, not counting any other philosophical conversations around materialism. We have China, India, and the other two BRIC nations knocking on the door to prosperity. Pretty soon we're going have an additional two or three billion people wanting the same quality of life that we Americans have. And can you blame them? I mean, the United States had its own industrial revolution and nobody stopped us! What's more noble than pulling people out of poverty? The truth is Capitalism is the best economic engine we've devised so far (and I have no problem with it) and with it, we've created a lot of good human progress. We've far fewer poor countries than fifty years ago, our machines are more energy efficient, we've cured diseases. The present is better than any time in the past. These are reasons why we have to have faith that we can innovate our way out of environmental concerns, eventually. But for now, our human progress has downsides that have grave implications for our environment and I think materialism and wastefulness is our biggest enemy. Which is why I advocate for a conscious capitalism. I think we should probably ask ourselves how happy buying that next 'thing' will make us. Does it really make your life that much better? If it does, then go for it! Buy the most badass 'thing' can afford! But if it's just an impulsive buy then save your money. Your 401k and your planet will thank you for it.
 
I was in the middle of writing a long *** response to Carbon and Franklin, but the computer crashed. In 2015! So much for the power of technology! Just kidding. I'll just write a quick response to Carbon13 since the perspectives are similar and I need to get ready for bed.

I see what you're saying and I wasn't very clear in my last post - sorry. I was trying to relate environmental issues to the bigger picture. My view is climate change and environmental degradation is inevitable.

The rate at which the temperature is increasing, species are going extinct, garbage is accumulating in the oceans, and so on, can be greatly reduced. Just because some degree of degradation is inevitable doesn't mean we should sit back and let whatever happens happen.

The reason being is our entire economic system depends on fossil fuels and natural resources. We simply don't have the technology to ween ourselves off of them. So then why are we even having conversations over all of this?

Renewable energy technologies are already competitive with fossil fuels to some extent. Subsidies that bring the two closer to price parity has helped uptake of renewables skyrocket in the past decade. Subsidies are regulations, and in this case, they helped the adoption of cleaner technology and enabled a more sustainable economic path. The economic cost of enabling this exponential increase in renewable adoption has been negligible. It would be even less so if we stopped subsidizing fossil fuels.

Well, that's just it, our only resolution to pollution at this point in human history is not innovation - at least not yet - it's reduction. Using less! But that's the problem. Our economic system is based on people spending more money and environmental conservation is based on people spending less! They are antithetical. So what again, what can we do? Unfortunately, we are humans with strong wants and needs. We also have powerful special interest groups that make us feel inadequate, feel pressure to keep up with our neighbors, and to want what we don't really need. We buy things that don't really make us happy. But why? I can't answer that question, it's different for everybody, but what I do know is it is bad for the environment, not counting any other philosophical conversations around materialism.

You're imposing that mentality on yourself for no reason. Buying a product adds to the GDP. Fully recycling a product adds to the GDP. Investing in clean tech research adds to GDP. Having a healthy long-lived population adds to GDP. Capitalism isn't about blindly buying everything you can.

We have China, India, and the other two BRIC nations knocking on the door to prosperity. Pretty soon we're going have an additional two or three billion people wanting the same quality of life that we Americans have. And can you blame them? I mean, the United States had its own industrial revolution and nobody stopped us! What's more noble than pulling people out of poverty? The truth is Capitalism is the best economic engine we've devised so far (and I have no problem with it) and with it, we've created a lot of good human progress. We've far fewer poor countries than fifty years ago, our machines are more energy efficient, we've cured diseases. The present is better than any time in the past. These are reasons why we have to have faith that we can innovate our way out of environmental concerns, eventually. But for now, our human progress has downsides that have grave implications for our environment and I think materialism and wastefulness is our biggest enemy. Which is why I advocate for a conscious capitalism. I think we should probably ask ourselves how happy buying that next 'thing' will make us. Does it really make your life that much better? If it does, then go for it! Buy the most badass 'thing' can afford! But if it's just an impulsive buy then save your money. Your 401k and your planet will thank you for it.

Nobody disagrees that industrialization is important. I for one think it is the most important development in human history. The problems it solves vastly outweigh the problems it creates. Nonetheless, it creates problems. And some of those problems can be solved without stopping, or even significantly slowing down, economic growth. No country has a Randian free market, and thank God for that. We need the market to work for our benefit, instead of contriving religious sentiment about the perfection that is free enterprise while turning a blind eye to areas we can improve. We're both advocating for "conscious capitalism". We both want the same thing. What it boils down to is that I believe corrections based on objective interpretation of available data is far better than just letting things play out and hoping for the best.
 
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