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When will Hayward surpass AK47 as the 2nd best Jazz SF of All Time?

Somehow AK is a better passer than Hayward even though Hayward has way better assist averages. But AK did those fancy passes!

Because Hayward has ball in his hands way more than AK ( usage rate 26% vs 20%) and his passes were coming from set up structured offense which is suppose to result in pass coming from Hayward. AK was way more creative as a passer. Same with Sabonis for example... some centers may have had a better assist average but was there ever better passing center then Sabonis - no way.
 
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If 26 year old AK was on our current team instead of Hayward we would not be winning nearly as much.
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Thats biggest BS. Put 26 year old AK near Gobert and most of the teams would forfeit before the game. We would have enough scoring without Hayward, AK's defense, rebounding and passing would give you more than enough to offset 6-7pts difference we would lose without Hayward.
 
Hayward would have made our defense so much better. I am also not convinced AK is a better man on man defender. Hayward does a great job of staying in front of his man, fighting through screens, properly rotating much better than AK ever did..

Just admit you never watched prime AK. I will repeat again Haywards defense is so overrated by this board it is even not funny. Just look at advance stats like opponent FG% and defensive ratings - Hayward is slightly above average, prime AK was elite. There is a reason Hayward was never mentioned in All defensive team voting.
 
Hayward is the far superior man defender I remember there was a game last year where they showed a graphic where he gave up the second least points to sf's. Where AK sacrificed his position defense for his numbers, Hayward sacrificed individual numbers to keep his man from scoring. I'll take the better position defense over the greater blocks and steals numbers every time.

Prove it with advanced defensive stats. I dare you. All you will find looking at all advanced defensive stats that Hayward is nothing special as defender. Good luck!
 
Just admit you never watched prime AK. I will repeat again Haywards defense is so overrated by this board it is even not funny. Just look at advance stats like opponent FG% and defensive ratings - Hayward is slightly above average, prime AK was elite. There is a reason Hayward was never mentioned in All defensive team voting.

Saying "advance stats!!" Without pointing out which stats you're talking about isn't helpful-- there's advanced stats that currently appraise Kawhi Leonard as a sieve on defence
 
AK's skills were very unique for a PF, especially in his era. Unfortunately, he was made expendable by Carlos Boozer & Deron Williams, two players which Hayward might outdo in terms of legacy with the Jazz
 
Just admit you never watched prime AK. I will repeat again Haywards defense is so overrated by this board it is even not funny. Just look at advance stats like opponent FG% and defensive ratings - Hayward is slightly above average, prime AK was elite. There is a reason Hayward was never mentioned in All defensive team voting.
Never missed a game his whole career here. It's okay, I'm guessing he was your favorite player. Maybe the reason you became a real Jazz fan.
 
Never missed a game his whole career here. It's okay, I'm guessing he was your favorite player. Maybe the reason you became a real Jazz fan.

No the reason I became Jazz fan was 1996 playoffs when they came back from 3-1 down to Seattle to tie it and just to lose in game 7...Stockton and Malone was so special. Before that we would not be able to see much of NBA back in Eastern Europe.
 
When you end up on all NBA no defense team means you can't ever be talked as good defender.

https://blogs.mercurynews.com/kawak...ard-james-harden-monta-ellis-and-many-others/

Gordon Hayward, Utah. Richard Jefferson was a much worse wing player for Utah this season, in every way. Heck, Jefferson probably was one of the four or five worst rotation players in the league this season. (Others: Arron Afflalo, Mo Harkless, Bargnani, and either Al-Farouq Aminu or Tony Wroten.)

But I’m putting Hayward on the ND 2nd team because he had a -1.59 DRPM, ranking him 339th, and he just never looked like he was ready to emerge from the Jazz’s defensive morass.

I keep waiting for Hayward to show that he’s figuring it out… and he hasn’t shown anything like that yet.
 
When you end up on all NBA no defense team means you can't ever be talked as good defender.

https://blogs.mercurynews.com/kawak...ard-james-harden-monta-ellis-and-many-others/

Gordon Hayward, Utah. Richard Jefferson was a much worse wing player for Utah this season, in every way. Heck, Jefferson probably was one of the four or five worst rotation players in the league this season. (Others: Arron Afflalo, Mo Harkless, Bargnani, and either Al-Farouq Aminu or Tony Wroten.)

But I’m putting Hayward on the ND 2nd team because he had a -1.59 DRPM, ranking him 339th, and he just never looked like he was ready to emerge from the Jazz’s defensive morass.

I keep waiting for Hayward to show that he’s figuring it out… and he hasn’t shown anything like that yet.

Lmao um Tim Kawakami is very well known as a dunce. Also pls go look up Kawhi's current DRPM
 
Lmao um Tim Kawakami is very well known as a dunce. Also pls go look up Kawhi's current DRPM

I looked, 17th among small forwards in the league. Hayward is 33. And this is his best season. Gianis, Thabo and Durant are top 3 - anybody wants to argue it is not true?

Rudy leads all league, so it must have some value right?

https://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/DRPM


Last season Kawhi was the best. Hayward was 32. Can we stop please.

https://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/year/2016/sort/DRPM/position/5

2014-2015

https://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/year/2015/sort/DRPM/position/5

Kawhi leads again...Hayward not to be found in top 40 of SF in all NBA. Please, stop the madness!!!

2013-2014

Hayward makes top 40!!!! at nr. 40... LOL

https://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/year/2014/sort/DRPM/position/5
 
AK came at the end of our nearly 20 year run with Stockton and Malone and infused new hope for the franchise at their departure. With Stockton and Malone running the show, he was able to come in with energy and hustle, diving for loose balls and picking up blocks. He caught Kobe off guard when Kobe scored something like 30 points in the half, hitting a near half-court shot at the halftime buzzer, only to come out the second half guarded by AK and being held to something like 2 points. The year we were predicted to win 9 games, he was our star player as we exceeded that expectation by 34 games. At that time, our belief as fans was cemented so strong that we thought him being a top 5 player was a certainty. There was a time where, after a game against Dallas, Don Nelson approached Larry Miller and stated he would give anyone on his roster for him.

With this backdrop, it made it very hard for us to accept and let go of all the belief we had in him as it was pretty deeply ingrained. We ended up with a very good offensive team and made a good run when AK became the fourth option behind Deron, Memo and Boozer. He had a lackluster year and all the complementary things he could have provided seemed to not be present as he felt slighted in his diminished offensive role and the idea that he was taking a backseat to other players that were contributing to our success in many more visible ways. His defensive problems began to be exposed when people like Kobe quickly learned how to adjust around him. His man to man defense was quite poor but his failures on the perimeter allowed him to redeem himself with recovery blocks, but the defender who simply didn't let their man go past him wouldn't be viewed as being as defensively competent. His time with Utah probably lasted 3 years longer than it should have. As fans we had a hard time reconciling our past hopes with him with the then current reality and many clung to the hope of the past. The controversy surrounding him was enough of a distraction for the team but many dismissed that as if his frustrations were justified, neglecting how that was effecting the team and chemistry, in my view.
 
I must admit I did not watch many Spurs games - what is the reason for Kawhi defensive woes this season? No Duncan to help?
 
Infection sums things up very well above. I would only add that AK's gifts were beyond that of anyone else on our roster during the Williams/Boozer/Memo years. He could have been better than all of them, even Deron. But instead of getting stronger and working on his game, he totally balked when DWill and Boozer took over the offense. Dove into his Russian spy novels, and stopped hustling on defense. That's why the league was able to mitigate his defensive effectiveness. He surrendered like an 10-year-old to the players around him and cried over expectations instead of evolving into a man.
 
Keep in mind the only reason we are in this predicament is DL gambled on Hayward as a RFA and lost.

If I'm Hayward that pisses me off

He's so pissed off about all that extra money in the bank account next year.
 
Yeah, I remember he was a great help side defender, but it's not like he was ever one of the top lockdown defenders.

Not entirely true. I remember a game Kirilenko had where he totally shut down Kobe Bryant during the second half of a basketball game.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200203060UTA.html

It was Kirilenko's rookie year in early 2002 and the Lakers were at Utah.

Kobe had 23 pts in the first half of the game, I remember this game pretty well because after he hit a 3 pt shot at the end of the half, Kobe went to center court and pounded the Jazz logo with his fist. Jerry Sloan started the second half with Kirilenko on Bryant. I know, Sloan making an adjustment!? Kobe only scored 3 points for the rest of the game, he was totally shut down by Andrei's 1v1 defense. Kobe ended the game with a +/- of -12, and Andrei had +13/

So, yeah, Andrei could totally shut down a defender in a 1v1 situation, and he did it pretty well on more than just this occasion.
 
Not entirely true. I remember a game Kirilenko had where he totally shut down Kobe Bryant during the second half of a basketball game.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200203060UTA.html

It was Kirilenko's rookie year in early 2002 and the Lakers were at Utah.

Kobe had 23 pts in the first half of the game, I remember this game pretty well because after he hit a 3 pt shot at the end of the half, Kobe went to center court and pounded the Jazz logo with his fist. Jerry Sloan started the second half with Kirilenko on Bryant. I know, Sloan making an adjustment!? Kobe only scored 3 points for the rest of the game, he was totally shut down by Andrei's 1v1 defense. Kobe ended the game with a +/- of -12, and Andrei had +13/

So, yeah, Andrei could totally shut down a defender in a 1v1 situation, and he did it pretty well on more than just this occasion.

I also remember the playoff series where Kobe averaged 33-7-7 in 2008 on 49% shooting.
 
Sloan had lost the script with AK and that team. There was a championship caliber roster, being pushed in the wrong directions. The league had changed, the rules had changed, but the coaching while still motivationally effective - was playing by old rules.

Nothing epitomizes this better than a story that Jeff Hornacek told when he was trying to work with Kirilenko as an assistant coach. Hornacek was talking about how he asked AK to guard him, and AK bodied up on him really closely and fouled him. And Hornacek was like, "What are you doing?" And Kirilenko said that was how Coach Sloan wanted them to defend, get up in their grill and put a body on them. Hornacek said, maybe for the rest of the team, but with your length you need to step back because you can still block the shot. And that stepping back would give your more time to stop dribble penetration, which you should focus on because you have long enough arms you can already block their jumper. Hornacek said, that explained to him why AK was blocking so many people from behind because he was guarding them too close to start with - but that was under Sloan's orders. Almost everything Sloan did with that roster has been proven demonstrably wrong.

1. Deron Williams - was the Jazz' offensive powerhouse, he could score inside and out, and was one of the biggest and strongest post up guards in the league. But, he couldn't be the leading scorer on the team, because he was the point guard. And the Jazz couldn't run post up plays for their biggest mismatch on a nightly basis, because he was a PG, and posting up and scoring inside is naturally the job of the Power Forward. Now, once DWill was with the Nets and allowed to post up smaller guards, and score as much as he wanted it came as no surprise that he had a 57 point game, also Deron's top 5 years in 3 pointers made are with non-Utah teams. He was making more 3's because he was able to take more, and post-up in the paint so teams have to guard him differently. Which brings us to...

2. Carlos Boozer. His best game was facing the basket, and taking 12-18 footers. He would have been a terrific 3rd option on offense, and a last option on defense. As it was, he was posting up with his back to the basket. This is usually meant him taking several dribbles until he got into the 12-18 foot range and was facing the basket at which point he would routinely drain a jumper.

3. Mehmet Okur - arguably the best shooter in this group, and the Spurs killer de jour. Memo was not only the team's best 3 point shooter, but also a terrific free throw shooter, routinely at over 80%. He easily should have been the first or second option. What he wasn't great at was shot blocking. So, why did the Jazz run a defensive scheme designed around funnelling opposing guards down the middle towards the hoop????? - where Memo and Boozer were waiting? I mean that kind of scheme makes a ton of sense when you've got Mark Eaton and Mailman patrolling the paint, or even Ostertag. But, Memo and Boozer? often times, our defense killed us when the players WERE executing it.

4. Andrei Kirilenko - perhaps the most misused piece on this team. Kirilenko was probably best utilized when Sloan was forced to play him at defacto Point Guard because of injuries. If AK were entering the league today, we would be looking at his potential as STRETCH FOUR or a POINT-FORWARD. Kirilenko was the best post passer on this roster. He could dump the ball down perfectly to anyone in the paint. Problem is, he wasn't in a position to pass the ball and our best post up player (DWill) was often camped out behind the arc. In the meantime the best roaming defense in the league was not allowed to roam (alla John Stockton) because Kirilenko hadn't earned that yet, or some such nonsense.

5. Paul Millsap - it was a brainless tradition that Tyrone Corbin continued even after Sloan left. 3 pointers were bad for business, and you especially didn't shoot them if you were a Power Forward. You'd think the Miracle in Miami night would have been a clue, when Millsap lit up the heat going 3 for 3 and scoring 11 points in 28 seconds - you'd think the Jazz coaching staff might have seriously reconsidered Millsap's role as a 3 point shooter, but no. It wasn't until he went to Atlanta that he started making 3's on a regular basis, which was also when he was able to score easier inside because opponents had to guard him differently, and then he got his first All-Star nod. Meanwhile in Utah, we were wondering if he could ever play on the floor with Favors - completely unaware that he had a 3 point game.

I'm sure there is an alternate universe out there, where Deron and Memo were our leading scorers, Kirilenko lead the Jazz in assists, blocks, and steals, and the Jazz played defensive schemes oriented around using the length of DWill, Ronnie Brewer, AK and Millsap to put pressure on the passing lanes, force turnovers and create fast break opportunities. The Jazz then made multiple trips to the WCF, and maybe beyond.

All that being said, in a best of the Jazz history matchup.
You take Gobert, I'll take Gobert.
You take Malone, I'll take Malone.
You take Stockton, I'll take Stockton.
You take Maravic. I'll take Maravic.
You take Hayward, and I'll take Kirilenko.

And we will mop the floor with you.
 
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