What's new

Trump bars people from 7 countries entering the US

I think all Donald Trump and other concerned Americans want is to make sure that the people aren't part of a dangerous cult that believes in chopping of heads and hands. Oppressing woman and gays, rape,and may other awful things.


Is that really too much to ask?

You do realize that lots of Christian offshoot sects also believe in dangerous things. Should we, then, bar Christians from entering the country based on gross negative generalizations about them too?

You do realize that there is a great deal of diversity in Islam in terms of what people believe and how they act on those beliefs, don't you? You speak as if its a monolithic group, which it is not. He's pandering to all the folks who imagine scary, brown skinned things that go bump in the night.

Trump is just feeding the dog after whistling at it for months during the campaign.
 
I'm a Mormon and I'm not prejudiced. I hate everyone equally.
 
I think all Donald Trump and other concerned Americans want is to make sure that the people aren't part of a dangerous cult that believes in chopping of heads and hands. Oppressing woman and gays, rape,and may other awful things.


Is that really too much to ask?

Yes, when there is no proof of that or danger of that in our country. It is a witch hunt. How many people have been killed by people from the countries Trump attempted to ban in this county? 0. More white christian males rape women and oppress them in this country than any other group even per capita. Provo, Ut has a very high rate of sexual abuse. Sexual abuse among LDS communities is higher than average for the US.

Here are some stats about Utah in general
One in three Utah women will experience some form of sexual violence during their lives. (3)
In 2011, the costs of sexual violence totaled nearly $5 billion, almost $1,700 per Utah resident. (8)
A total of 895 rapes were reported to Utah police agencies in 2013. (7)
Utah's rate of rape has been significantly higher than the U.S. rate since 2000. (2)
In 2014, Utah's reported rape rate was significantly higher than the U.S. rate (67.7 and 51.9 per 100,000 females). (2)
The majority of rapes (88.2%) are not reported to law enforcement.

https://www.health.utah.gov/vipp/topics/rape-sexual-assault/
 
There is a big difference between discriminating against people and a book. If someone chooses to follow a book that calls for you to do horrible things. Then that book and the people who follow it are dangerous people. Its doesn't matter what your skin color is or where you are from. Its all about that book. Get rid of the book and denounce it, then you are welcome.

Have you read the Koran? Have you read the Bible? Both books are generally positive and preach what most believe to be good things. Both have some terrible stuff that has justified terrible people to do terrible things through out history. Most Christians and Muslims in this country are good law abiding citizens. A few extreme people who claim to be apart of those religions do not represent their religion. I can give you lots of examples of Christians doing awful things, that does not mean they are all bad and we should ban all of them.
 
Racism has different dimensions. There's the negative stereotpying dimension, there's the hate dimension, and there is inevitably the power dimension. Socially, racism ultimately manifests itself in terms of one group seeking to gain power over another to dominate/oppress them. Thus while whites, as a group, may well be victims of negative stereotyping or hate, they have not, nor are they likely to be, dominated or oppressed as a group by blacks, a least not in the US.

To hear/see white people cry about reverse racism is pathetic, as it always is when the powerful whine and complain.

lol classic lefty hoshwag.

its like saying you cannot be racist against white because of white privilege. hahahahaha
 
I'm a Mormon and I'm not prejudiced. I hate everyone equally.

I am more or less the same, but I definitely hate some people more than others. I just don't base hate on race, color, or creed, I base my hate based on social class, which is still legal to do. :)


Oh, and I hate Gargamel.
 
lol classic lefty hoshwag.

its like saying you cannot be racist against white because of white privilege. hahahahaha

Did you actually read my post? Let's review:

1. Racism has different dimenions, including (1) negative stereotypes, (2) hatred, (3) domination/oppression.
2. Whites are victims of (1) and (2) but not (3)

So, whites can be vicitims of racism--that is some elements of it--but not the primary, most destructive way it manifests itself in society. If you want to make the case that blacks have been systematically oppressing whites, I'd love to hear it.

If you want to debate, get an f'n clue and turn off your knee jerk, brain dead response function.
 
Did you actually read my post? Let's review:

1. Racism has different dimenions, including (1) negative stereotypes, (2) hatred, (3) domination/oppression.
2. Whites are victims of (1) and (2) but not (3)

So, whites can be vicitims of racism--that is some elements of it--but not the primary, most destructive way it manifests itself in society. If you want to make the case that blacks have been systematically oppressing whites, I'd love to hear it.

If you want to debate, get an f'n clue and turn off your knee jerk, brain dead response function.

worthwhile post, bro... but that is a troll you're engaged with.
 
Did you actually read my post? Let's review:

1. Racism has different dimenions, including (1) negative stereotypes, (2) hatred, (3) domination/oppression.
2. Whites are victims of (1) and (2) but not (3)

So, whites can be vicitims of racism--that is some elements of it--but not the primary, most destructive way it manifests itself in society. If you want to make the case that blacks have been systematically oppressing whites, I'd love to hear it.

If you want to debate, get an f'n clue and turn off your knee jerk, brain dead response function.

You're right, but I worry about where we're heading with this. The fact that whites have the power is incidental. I think we should reject the shared myth of "race" if we are to move forward as a society. I have seen this push by some in the intelligentsia to define racism as prejudice by those who have power. But that kind of conceptualization normalizes racism and assures the cycle continues, but with new characters in each chapter. While it can be argued that it is reflective of the reality of the situation (racism by those with power has much more of an impact), I still view it as regressive and a movement in the wrong direction.
 
I thought this was an interesting recent editorial in light of some of the comments in this thread:

https://www.sltrib.com/opinion/4881805-155/op-ed-utahs-religious-climate-helps-muslim


Op-ed: Utah’s religious climate helps Muslim immigrants adapt
By Tara Goodwin, Natally Tabish, Casey Koldewyn, Allyson Berri, Maura Cheney and Savanna Williams
First Published Feb 04 2017 03:39PM • Last Updated Feb 05 2017 04:58 pm

As part of our final project for Muslim Women's Voices, an undergraduate course taught at the University of Utah, we conducted a research project with Muslim students currently studying at the U. The goal of this project was to better understand the experiences of Muslim students, as well as to discover what changes the university could make to accommodate them on campus. Given the current political climate we expected students to report increased feelings of discrimination and incidents of harassment but our results surprised us, revealing a more tolerant trend.

We interviewed a wide range of students, hailing from Malaysia, Pakistan, India, Egypt and the United States, with ages ranging from 17 to 34. The interviewees were fluent in a range of languages including English, Arabic, Urdu and Malay, with some speaking up to seven languages. All students interviewed were current U. students, with a majority (about 53 percent) seeking graduate degrees. Students were involved in a myriad of activities, including scientific research, student government, planning councils and the Muslim Student Association.

One of the major trends we discovered was that many of the Muslim students identified with the religious environment in Utah. Muslim students drew parallels between Islamic and Mormon values, such as restricting alcohol and dressing modestly. Many research participants further noted that they identified with the Mormon population in the state, thanks to these shared religious lifestyles.

With the prevalence of Mormonism, some interviewees felt that Utah fostered a more understanding outlook towards religiosity, especially considering the stereotypes and persecution both faiths have faced. One common theme uncovered was that Muslim students were happier in Utah than they had been in other parts of the United States, showing that Muslim students have found refuge in Utah, thanks to its largely religious population.

When it came to the U. specifically, overall the students found the campus a welcoming and tolerant community. Despite the limited food vendors accommodating halal restrictions and the lack of accessible places to pray, Muslim students felt that the University of Utah embraced their cultural differences. There were ways in which we found ourselves relating personally to the Muslim students we interviewed as well; this connection included issues such as dating difficulties and strict parents.

This information, in addition to the fact that many interviewees said their friends participated in the same activities as they did, showed us that while Muslim students at the U. do have their own differences, which make their experiences unique, they were all very similar to us non-Muslim students of this class, at the U. and throughout Utah.

Ultimately, we felt that the research we gathered dispelled many assumptions about what many might have expected to hear from Muslim students. We learned that being Muslim doesn't encompass one's entire identity. These students are just like us — young adults navigating university life — just with different religious beliefs than some of their peers. They have some specific concerns that we do not necessarily have to worry about ourselves, like having somewhere to pray or having adequate halal food options in the dining hall, but they are not people to be labeled as automatically different and neither can they all be lumped together. They are as diverse as any other group of people. In simpler words, we found that "Muslim" is a broad label.

The main lessons we took away from this experience were that despite political tension and talk of restricting Muslims from entering the country, Utah's religious nature offers a tolerant, understanding atmosphere for Muslim students demonstrating just how much both Mormons and Muslims, even people of all walks-of-life, have in common. From this research, we, as Utahans, can be leaders in the nation when it comes to acceptance of Muslim communities.

Our state's religious origins seem to have set up an atmosphere of acceptance, and this is something we should be proud of and be working to encourage elsewhere even as we strengthen our resolve to remain accepting here. There are ways in which we can be better, of course; our attention should go there as well in that work. But our interviewees have shown us how we are doing well already and that should be acknowledged and praised. Our research suggests that Utah is bucking national trends and that is something to hold on to.

Tara Godwin, Natally Tabish, Casey Koldewyn, Allyson Berri, Maura Cheney and Savannah Williams are University of Utah students.
 
I thought this was an interesting recent editorial in light of some of the comments in this thread:

https://www.sltrib.com/opinion/4881805-155/op-ed-utahs-religious-climate-helps-muslim


Op-ed: Utah’s religious climate helps Muslim immigrants adapt
By Tara Goodwin, Natally Tabish, Casey Koldewyn, Allyson Berri, Maura Cheney and Savanna Williams
First Published Feb 04 2017 03:39PM • Last Updated Feb 05 2017 04:58 pm

As part of our final project for Muslim Women's Voices, an undergraduate course taught at the University of Utah, we conducted a research project with Muslim students currently studying at the U. The goal of this project was to better understand the experiences of Muslim students, as well as to discover what changes the university could make to accommodate them on campus. Given the current political climate we expected students to report increased feelings of discrimination and incidents of harassment but our results surprised us, revealing a more tolerant trend.

We interviewed a wide range of students, hailing from Malaysia, Pakistan, India, Egypt and the United States, with ages ranging from 17 to 34. The interviewees were fluent in a range of languages including English, Arabic, Urdu and Malay, with some speaking up to seven languages. All students interviewed were current U. students, with a majority (about 53 percent) seeking graduate degrees. Students were involved in a myriad of activities, including scientific research, student government, planning councils and the Muslim Student Association.

One of the major trends we discovered was that many of the Muslim students identified with the religious environment in Utah. Muslim students drew parallels between Islamic and Mormon values, such as restricting alcohol and dressing modestly. Many research participants further noted that they identified with the Mormon population in the state, thanks to these shared religious lifestyles.

With the prevalence of Mormonism, some interviewees felt that Utah fostered a more understanding outlook towards religiosity, especially considering the stereotypes and persecution both faiths have faced. One common theme uncovered was that Muslim students were happier in Utah than they had been in other parts of the United States, showing that Muslim students have found refuge in Utah, thanks to its largely religious population.

When it came to the U. specifically, overall the students found the campus a welcoming and tolerant community. Despite the limited food vendors accommodating halal restrictions and the lack of accessible places to pray, Muslim students felt that the University of Utah embraced their cultural differences. There were ways in which we found ourselves relating personally to the Muslim students we interviewed as well; this connection included issues such as dating difficulties and strict parents.

This information, in addition to the fact that many interviewees said their friends participated in the same activities as they did, showed us that while Muslim students at the U. do have their own differences, which make their experiences unique, they were all very similar to us non-Muslim students of this class, at the U. and throughout Utah.

Ultimately, we felt that the research we gathered dispelled many assumptions about what many might have expected to hear from Muslim students. We learned that being Muslim doesn't encompass one's entire identity. These students are just like us — young adults navigating university life — just with different religious beliefs than some of their peers. They have some specific concerns that we do not necessarily have to worry about ourselves, like having somewhere to pray or having adequate halal food options in the dining hall, but they are not people to be labeled as automatically different and neither can they all be lumped together. They are as diverse as any other group of people. In simpler words, we found that "Muslim" is a broad label.

The main lessons we took away from this experience were that despite political tension and talk of restricting Muslims from entering the country, Utah's religious nature offers a tolerant, understanding atmosphere for Muslim students demonstrating just how much both Mormons and Muslims, even people of all walks-of-life, have in common. From this research, we, as Utahans, can be leaders in the nation when it comes to acceptance of Muslim communities.

Our state's religious origins seem to have set up an atmosphere of acceptance, and this is something we should be proud of and be working to encourage elsewhere even as we strengthen our resolve to remain accepting here. There are ways in which we can be better, of course; our attention should go there as well in that work. But our interviewees have shown us how we are doing well already and that should be acknowledged and praised. Our research suggests that Utah is bucking national trends and that is something to hold on to.

Tara Godwin, Natally Tabish, Casey Koldewyn, Allyson Berri, Maura Cheney and Savannah Williams are University of Utah students.

some sentiments of this are accurate-- but I wonder how Mormon parents would feel about their children spending time with Muslims, or perhaps dating them.
 
some sentiments of this are accurate-- but I wonder how Mormon parents would feel about their children spending time with Muslims, or perhaps dating them.

To be fair, many Mormon parents wouldn't be happy about their children dating anyone outside the Mormon religion. Those who are ok with it are probably as inclined to be ok with a Muslim as anyone else.

The cultural expectation to marry within the faith (as the only way to have an eternal family) is very strong within Mormonism. (Of course, that God would break up loving families simply because they preferred not to convert to Mormonism seems a bit uncharitable for the guy who's supposed to love everyone so much.)
 
You're right, but I worry about where we're heading with this. The fact that whites have the power is incidental. I think we should reject the shared myth of "race" if we are to move forward as a society. I have seen this push by some in the intelligentsia to define racism as prejudice by those who have power. But that kind of conceptualization normalizes racism and assures the cycle continues, but with new characters in each chapter. While it can be argued that it is reflective of the reality of the situation (racism by those with power has much more of an impact), I still view it as regressive and a movement in the wrong direction.

Those are all very good points. I tend not to agree that we can, or should, disassociate racism from power assymetries and a means to maintain them. This context seems pretty essential to me to understand what racism is and why it is so destructive. BUT, I can see where you're coming from. I need to think about this one a bit more.
 
some sentiments of this are accurate-- but I wonder how Mormon parents would feel about their children spending time with Muslims, or perhaps dating them.

Hmmm...how would parents feel about a child dating a person from a religion that they don't believe in, and would think was going to hell? I can tell you right now I wouldn't approve. I also wouldn't approve of dating a Mormon, or Jehovah's Witness, or Catholic, or a myriad of different religions. Is that so wrong?
 
To be fair, many Mormon parents wouldn't be happy about their children dating anyone outside the Mormon religion. Those who are ok with it are probably as inclined to be ok with a Muslim as anyone else.

The cultural expectation to marry within the faith (as the only way to have an eternal family) is very strong within Mormonism.

I wonder if Muslims feel the same way about their children. (Strong preference that they marry/date other muslims)
 
Hmmm...how would parents feel about a child dating a person from a religion that they don't believe in, and would think was going to hell? I can tell you right now I wouldn't approve. I also wouldn't approve of dating a Mormon, or Jehovah's Witness, or Catholic, or a myriad of different religions. Is that so wrong?

For what it's worth, Mormons don't generally think people from other religions are going to hell.
 
For what it's worth, Mormons don't generally think people from other religions are going to hell.

I was under the impression y'all believed in the Bible and Jesus. Maybe I was wrong.

Edit: sorry, that was rude. Clearly we interpret things differently. That's all.
 
The cultural expectation to marry within the faith (as the only way to have an eternal family) is very strong within Mormonism.

The cultural expectation to marry within the faith is certainly high. But it's not taught as the only way to have an eternal family, given the LDS teaching of conversions being possible in the hereafter, and e.g. family sealings being done for the deceased in temples.
 
I was under the impression y'all believed in the Bible and Jesus. Maybe I was wrong.

Yes, we believe in the Bible and in Jesus. We also believe that missionary work is being done in the hereafter, see e.g. 1 Peter 4:6--"For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit."


edit to explain a bit more about the LDS belief--So we don't know who is going to accept Christ and who isn't. Just because someone doesn't accept Christ in this life doesn't necessarily mean they are going to hell.
 
Back
Top