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Trumpcare makes things worse

Oh ok. Gotcha. Yeah I think this is a good idea.

Just to give everyone an idea over how much health care is (over)consuming our economy...

Health care accounts for 18 percent of our GDP. Our GDP is nearly $19 trillion dollars. So 18 percent of $19 trillion...

Just to put that in perspective, France is #2 or #3 in spending and is considered to be one of the most generous when it comes to health care beenfits. Their health care system is consuming 13 percent of its GDP. Its GDP is $2.7 trillion.

Per capita? We are spending 2-3 times as much per person as most industrialized countries. We spend the most, get little, and still don't even come up with universal coverage leaving 10 percent of our population (30 million) uninsured.

Isn't that crazy???

I agree. Based on our spending, and our return compared to other countries, things do need to change.

Now if only you would take that same logic and apply it to our education system. We spend the most, get an average/below-average return, perhaps we're doing something wrong?
 
Sounds like you have a view on offer. Don't leave us hanging.

Insurance

The entire concept of what insurance is has become so distorted in our society. In its most simple form, the idea of insurance is that there are things that are unlikely to happen that, should they happen, the cost would be too burdensome to shoulder. So an individual pays a smaller amount of something they can afford to have coverage available in the unlikely event that something unfortunate happens. Our society has drastically expanded this far beyond the principle of what insurance is. Instead of paying small amounts to cover the un-coverable, we're paying large amounts to cover not just the un-coverable things but many, many things that could, and often should, be paid for ourselves. We judge the quality of an insurance plan by how little we have to pay out of pocket -- little or no co-pays, all prescriptions covered, etc. In general, we get very anxious about variability of expenses. $400 office visit with labs every couple years? Unreasonable. $400/month premium? No problem. It's easier to accept paying a large amount in premiums (even though we don't like it) because it's predictable and expected. Having periodic spikes in payment isn't acceptable because many don't generally account for things like that in a monthly budget, so insurance becomes the easy fall-back plan. Instead of relying on insurance just for paying that hospitalization for chest pain, we also want it to pay for that pediatrician's appointment for our kid and the $4 antibiotic for their ear infection. Sure, that may work for a lot of people, but you're paying for that in your premium. When we say "people need insurance," we're not talking about something that covers catastrophic events, we're talking about an expanded definition of insurance that costs a lot more in premiums. This is why people get worked up about birth control -- or any other thing that we demand be included in an insurance plan -- they think they aren't paying for it when the insurance "covers it" at the pharmacy.

For-profit insurers can suck. As a physician I'm well aware of this. I certainly think some of their power needs to be stripped as they get away with a lot of things that we wouldn't otherwise accept from any other kind of company. But I don't believe this change should come, nor would it effectively come, from top-down legislation. It has to come from us individuals as a society rejecting this warped concept of insurance. There are a handful of things I could get behind as far as insurance regulation, such as regulations that hold them accountable to holding up their end of the deal when someone enters a policy. But the idea that good ideas should be law and enforcing that through policy? I can't get behind that.

Healthcare

We've put a man on the moon. We have access to the world at our finger tips. We have vaccines for once deadly and disabling diseases. Many forms of cancer are now treatable and even curable. Science, medicine and technology have brought some incredible advances but we have somewhat of a magical view on what can be provided by healthcare and we generalize the above findings to the whole of medicine. Our magical views of medicine contribute to our underlying belief that bad things shouldn't happen. We look at the VA scandal and reference how many people died on the waiting list -- appealing to our belief that people don't just die and, had they gotten in to see a physician that perhaps there would have been a different outcome. Every time a sociopath shoots up a mall or theater, we talk about the need for increased access to mental health care, as if seeing a therapist and a little bit of Prozac would have prevented that.

There are important things that need treatment and there can be otherwise disabling or debilitating diseases that can be alleviated or even cured with modern medicine -- but this is the exception and not the rule. The vast majority of what's coming through outpatient clinics is not that. The vast majority of prescribed medications is not that. A lot of this is fueled by having insurance because our belief is that "someone else" is picking up the tab. Due to fear of litigation, appeasing patients and the realization that the patient directly won't absorb the cost, the bias is always for more intervention or workup, even when the potential benefit may be minuscule or when it would change management very little. I think one of the most harmful things to peoples' health is being shielded from the costs of their healthcare. I don't mean that someone who receives a new diagnosis of pancreatic cancer should feel all the burden of that -- I'm excluding catastrophic events. It's been demonstrated that there's a correlation with the more satisfied people are with their care, the worse their outcomes. That's not a justification to give poor care, but it's important to understand iatrogenic implications of what we allow our poor understanding of healthcare to do to our population.

So we've gone from opposing Obamacare to now not just wanting to repeal it but replace it. The whole thing is a non-starter for me. We as a society need to fix this from the bottom up -- not the top down.
 
I agree. Based on our spending, and our return compared to other countries, things do need to change.

Now if only you would take that same logic and apply it to our education system. We spend the most, get an average/below-average return, perhaps we're doing something wrong?

We spend more because we are charged more by pharmaceutical companies, makers of durable medical equipment, etc. We need to have a federal cap on what these companies can charge. Simply base that amount on the average charged to other industrialized nations. Most other countries currently limit what these companies can charge. So to make their profits they charge us more.

Education is a whole other ball game. I largely blame the tenure, unions, and the idea that performance standards for teachers should only be based on a short period of time.
 
If you're 26 years old and can't afford insurance, that's your fault. Plenty of jobs out there that pay well. Go get a CDL, go learn how to weld, become an electricians apprentice. But if you're 26 and can't pay for insurance, that's pathetic.

I'm curious, how old are you?
 
Germany's option looks amazing. 8% of your income into a sickness fund. No profits on the insurance side of things. Government helps to set/negotiate prices.

Why would that not work?
 
Is anyone else experiencing a certain amount of schadenfreude over watching the GOP self-immolate trying to advance a bill?
 
We spend more because we are charged more by pharmaceutical companies, makers of durable medical equipment, etc. We need to have a federal cap on what these companies can charge. Simply base that amount on the average charged to other industrialized nations. Most other countries currently limit what these companies can charge. So to make their profits they charge us more.

Education is a whole other ball game. I largely blame the tenure, unions, and the idea that performance standards for teachers should only be based on a short period of time.

Education is a HUGE, different mixed bad. There are so many problems from teacher's pay, to parents not being involved/using schooling as daycare (which isn't always a bad thing...as long as mom and dad stay involved), to moving away from hard sciences to social sciences, to no child left behind, etc.

The goal of school shouldn't be to pass a test. It should be to improve and learn.

In Washington, my kid was in first grade. They broke off into three sections for reading and math. There was a "below grade level", "at grade level" and "above grade level". My kid had 25 kids in his class. The classes were broken up into three groups of 8-9 kids each. They were instructed on what they needed help with.

My kid started out first grade in the "below grade level" reading group. Because he had good instruction, because he worked at it at home, and because, we his parents, were involved in his schooling, he left first grade in the "above grade level" reading group. Public schools there were an amazing success.

One HUGE problem with public schools are the republicans. Once the republicans realize that it might be just as (and any intelligent person would realize that it is actually MORE) important to have a great public school system as it is to provide all the corporate welfare they are so in love with, we will be able to see real change again.

Trump, for example, thinks it is more important to put government money, your and my tax dollars, into saving jobs that are outdated, unproductive, and unnecessary with burdensome tax breaks than to educate those workers who used to have those jobs so we can turn them into productive members of society.

How stupid is that?

Very.
 
Is anyone else experiencing a certain amount of schadenfreude over watching the GOP self-immolate trying to advance a bill?

It's hilarious. The republican party has completely screwed itself. Think about it:

Through the tea party, through the "everyone hates Christians", through the "Democrats just want to spend, spend, spend and raise the deficit" and "we will bring jobs back" rhetoric they've all rallied behind, they have set themsevles up to a point where they CANNOT win. It's impossible.

You can't cut taxes without raising the deficit. You can't repeal Obamacare without kicking a large portion of your base off insurance. You can't give all these companies tax breaks to keep jobs, without raising the deficity.

They have a group of legislatures that have no idea how to do anything. That is shown in the fact that since Trump has been elected, not one piece of legislation has been passed. Just executive orders, which aren't laws, which are long standing, and which, at the end of the day, can be pretty irrelevant, especially when you lose the White House and the next guy just undoes everything.

They've set this unrealistic standard, and they are all too dumb to know how to fix it.

Go Tea Party! Go Jesus!

smh.
 
The republicans have whined so much about everything the left does, now that they are in power, they have painted themselves into a corner where they have no tools left to fix anything, because all those tools were used by the left and BAD.

It's funny. It's pathetic.
 
We spend more because we are charged more by pharmaceutical companies, makers of durable medical equipment, etc. We need to have a federal cap on what these companies can charge. Simply base that amount on the average charged to other industrialized nations. Most other countries currently limit what these companies can charge. So to make their profits they charge us more.

Education is a whole other ball game. I largely blame the tenure, unions, and the idea that performance standards for teachers should only be based on a short period of time.

So if we judge education can we judge it based on the same criteria as other countries do? They only take their top university tract students, test them, and compare their results with our general population. So before we bash things like tenure or unions, let's make sure we are comparing apples to apples. Let's not judge our general pop kids against the elites from other countries and then bitch that our education system is underperforming.

It's always funny to hear complaints about teachers unions. What union? Do people still believe that unions really exist in this country? Funny stuff.

Anyone who has had experience in public education knows that the "evil red menance lucifer backed baal union" is #99 behind school bus color in the problems with education. When repubs bash public education they never seem to want to talk about the role of meddling legislatures, micromanaging bills, private companies exploiting education to sell their own crappy software, lack of parental or student accountability, the lack of a free market (teachers are penalized when moving districts), and why "local control knows best." Why should evolution or us history be different in Utah than in New York? Cuzzzzz local?

To me, anyone bashing teacher tenure or unions displays to me how intellectually lazy they are.
 
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False [MENTION=228]green[/MENTION]. Trump signed a bill passed by congress allowing Mattis to serve as Defense Sec lol.

;)
 
The republicans have whined so much about everything the left does, now that they are in power, they have painted themselves into a corner where they have no tools left to fix anything, because all those tools were used by the left and BAD.

It's funny. It's pathetic.


The role switch is both sided. Agreed on all above.

Add to that the Ds going scorched earth like the Rs did.

It's quite entertaining.
 
I agree. Based on our spending, and our return compared to other countries, things do need to change.

Now if only you would take that same logic and apply it to our education system. We spend the most, get an average/below-average return, perhaps we're doing something wrong?


yes relying on government as a decision making body is WRONG
 
The real culprit behind most of the ills we experience at the hands of our government are the for-profit congress and senate. As long as lobbyists can line pockets to buy votes such reform will likely never happen. The fish stinks from the head, and this is the case with healthcare as with entitlements and bridges to nowhere. Follow the money trail. As long as our legislative branch can be outright bought, fully legally, there is little to no incentive for any of them to put forth anything more than a token effort to garner votes during the next election cycle. The system is broken, period.

Want to get real change going? Only allow congress and the senate to use the basic minimum health-care coverage available to the majority of poverty-level citizens, and cap their salaries at 100k per year with no better retirement benefits allowed other than that available to the majority of poverty-level citizens (i.e. social security). See how fast things change.


I'd be fine with that. It's always easier for morons like jason chaffetz to bitch about poor people buying cellphones instead of health care when he gets his health care for free from taxpayers.

Anyway, lobbyists are certainly a huge problem. But recently, Switzerland in the mid 90s changed from our urgent system to the Bismarck system of nonprofit insurance used in Japan, France, and Germany. They too had to deal with lobbyists. But they got it done.

At some point Americans will need to realize that our system is broken beyond repair, the free market cannot fix something so necessary as health care, and we'll finally go single payer. Right?

The free market can do a lot of things well. It sucks at providing health care. You can't haggle when sick or dying nor live well without it.
 
Is anyone else experiencing a certain amount of schadenfreude over watching the GOP self-immolate trying to advance a bill?

Yes.

It's funny to see the far right tea baggers join the left in opposing Trumpcare. It appears now that repubs are merely passing something just to say that they repealed the black guy's thing and replaced it with the rich white guy's thing. The problem is, Trumpcare solves ZERO problems that Obamacare has. If anything, it will accelerate the death of our system as costs will continue to skyrocket and coverage will continue to evaporate.

Which could become very advantageous in 2018 and 2020. Every problem with health care can be blamed on the repubs. This is their ugly baby.
 
I'd be fine with that. It's always easier for morons like jason chaffetz to bitch about poor people buying cellphones instead of health care when he gets his health care for free from taxpayers.

Anyway, lobbyists are certainly a huge problem. But recently, Switzerland in the mid 90s changed from our urgent system to the Bismarck system of nonprofit insurance used in Japan, France, and Germany. They too had to deal with lobbyists. But they got it done.

At some point Americans will need to realize that our system is broken beyond repair, the free market cannot fix something so necessary as health care, and we'll finally go single payer. Right?

The free market can do a lot of things well. It sucks at providing health care. You can't haggle when sick or dying nor live well without it.

Healthcare hasn't been a free market. Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services have been arbitrarily determining the value of reimbursements for office visits and procedures (otherwise everything in medicine) that every other insurance company follows. It isn't and hasn't been anything close to a free market.
 
Healthcare hasn't been a free market. Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services have been arbitrarily determining the value of reimbursements for office visits and procedures (otherwise everything in medicine) that every other insurance company follows. It isn't and hasn't been anything close to a free market.

For good reason. What for profit insurance company will insure those 65+?

/end of discussion

Yet for those still on insurance, the market has remained reasonably free from government regulation. The truth of the matter is that you cannot have a free market (winners and losers) for something like health care. How to you haggle while suffering from a heart attack? How much is chemo worth to you? Why should MRIs change prices from hospital to hospital?
 
Healthcare hasn't been a free market. Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services have been arbitrarily determining the value of reimbursements for office visits and procedures (otherwise everything in medicine) that every other insurance company follows. It isn't and hasn't been anything close to a free market.

Yeah, man, this isn't the best example.
 
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