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Trumpcare makes things worse

We have private charities, and people willing to help out generally, and it's a shame we turn all that into entitlement programs without human compassion in play in our communities.

I don't buy this. I used to drink from this fountain, but seeing how my Church takes in 4-6 billion in tithing revenue a year and kicks back less than 1% of that to humanitarian funds...

If the Church that says they talk to God can't find charity, how can we expect anyone else to?

Look at the countries that have the best shot at the "American Dream" (ie, becoming more successful than your parents). We are falling down the list and falling fast. And the countries where they have a better shot at the Dream? Our so called "socialist" countries, France, Canada, Germany, etc.

Reaganomics has failed. Relying on the charity of the common man and church has failed. Trickle down has not worked.

It's time to go back to what works.
 
Has anyone seen Trump's proposed budget for 2018? It's ****ing ridiculous. America continues to become even more of a war for profit military state. It's disgusting how corrupt and stupid our country is when it comes to how much military contractors control politicians.

well seems like he increased funding to things conservatives consider are the role of government.
and cut **** the government has no business in!


you just disagree with the right as to the actual role of government.

small government principles are based on that.
especially watchmenstate government
 
Huh? Most of the right makes very, very little and is most likely not paying taxes anyways. As for the rest, all we are asking those people to do is to get off welfare...corporate welfare.

Do what you say you do and fend for yourself. Stop asking the government for handouts in the forms of tax breaks.

It's pretty simple stuff. Pay what you owe, like everyone else.

But, for whatever reason, it's ok for the top to get welfare, but not anyone else.

lol turmp paidf more taxes than bernie "commie" sanders and obummer Barrack the jihadist obama
 
Just think, if we didn't give the 20 million to the Millers, we could have told almost 9,000 households in Utah making $50,000 that they didn't have to pay any taxes this year.

Imagine all the good they could have done with that extra $2300?

The economy would explode.

Just got to get all these rich people off welfare.

stop paying taxes and stop giving government money and more reach!

limit government so they cant yuse your tax money to give money to rich people!
 
lol turmp paidf more taxes than bernie "commie" sanders and obummer Barrack the jihadist obama

Do we have Bernie's tax returns? I'd bet Trump paid a lower percentage than Sanders or Obama...well, maybe not Obama, because Obama isn't dumb enough to pay 24% of his income to taxes.

Let's get to the heart of the matter:

The right likes to say: Oh, Trump paid $34,000,000 in taxes. That is SOOOO much. He is so great. He pays too much!!! You only paid #30,000, you suck!!!

BUT, they fail to realize the most important aspect: It's not the total amount that is paid that is important. It is the percentage paid. Trump paid 24%. I paid 30%. I paid a higher percentage of my income to taxes than he did.

Be smart. Argue intelligently.

I don't care if Trump paid $100,000,000 in taxes. What I care about is what percentage of his income did he pay? If it is 10%, it's not enough. If it is 30%, then fantastic.
 
Ok so part of this that gets glossed over is the real cost and real benefit of a universal healthcare system. Here is my rant.

There are costs of not caring for our populace that are born by everyone, regardless of whether you get sick or not. Illness cost us a half trillion a year in lost productivity as a nation, for example. Do you think that money is invisible and just goes away? No, it gets passed to the consumer. To ALL consumers, even those that don't get sick. Have you ever had to cover for a sick worker at your job? There are many many ways this hits everyone, not just those that get sick. Lost productivity is a major impact. It affects not just prices, but the growth of the economy in general, and the ability of the economy to recover from slams due to market forces. It increases subsidies, which increases tax burden. It is a vicious cycle that has a far greater impact than I believe anyone really knows. And it is directly affected to a non-insubstantial degree, by health of the populace. There are many other social and economic factors that ripple through society that spreads out the pain for not having adequate healthcare available to everyone. Even as simple as rising healthcare costs in general being tied in no small way to healthcare organizations needing to pay for emergency care for people with no way to pay.

We really need to think about healthcare as a utility. Government works to regulate utilities to make sure we can get power, gas, water, etc. to basically everyone in the population. When was the last time people were up in arms because millions of lower-income people didn't have access to electricity or clean water. When was the last time the company you worked for could cut your hours and make it so you couldn't get gas to heat your house? This is viewed as a basic price of admission in society, to provide these basic needs at a rate that the vast majority of people can afford. And the burden is spread out to allow this. We all pay for electricity, for example, and can control our costs somewhat by how we use power, but we also pay a portion of it to subsidize power production and allow the costs to be kept relatively low for everyone. Why do we view healthcare any differently?

The tired argument that "I don't get sick, so I shouldn't have to pay anything" is incredibly short-sighted. Everyone benefits from living in a society, whether you admit it or not. It takes PEOPLE to keep a society running, among other resources. Some of this is so basic that it should not even be debated. Keeping the most important resource you have in society (people) operating at peak efficiency does nothing but benefit EVERYONE regardless of whether a single individual needs healthcare less than most others.

Think about our road system, or school system. Everyone pays to support those. Why? Because a good school system provides for our future and makes life better for everyone EVEN IF YOU NEVER HAVE ANY CHILDREN. So you don't want to pay for schools because you choose not to have children. Well, do you like advances in science and medicine and technology? Does it improve your life at all? Where did it come from? It started IN A SCHOOL. So we accept that we pay for schools to keep the machine running into the future. Same with roads. "I don't even own a car, I shouldn't have to pay for road upkeep." Ok, do you ever buy anything? How did it get to the store? Do you ever need emergency help, or would you like to keep access to it if needed? Then you need good roads for the firetruck to drive on to put out your house-fire. So guess what, we all pay something to take care of our road system because IT BENEFITS EVERYONE TO DO SO. And because it is impossible to determine literally everyone's access and usage of services, or future needs, to allocate it EXACTLY as it might be used.

Why is medicine any different, at all? Some things should ABSOLUTELY NOT be driven by market forces alone. Do you want to wait on a road construction project so they can get the best deal and wait for the market to set the prices? I am pretty sure we all agree most road projects take too long as it is and are too disruptive. There are still some market forces at play, but we do not allow it to take things over because it is counterproductive when dealing with basic UTILITY topics.

Same should apply to medicine. It should not be a bargaining chip or a left to solely let the market set the rates, because it is one of those goods that people CANNOT do without, which kicks it out of basic supply-demand economic models. It needs to be viewed no differently than education or infrastructure, just the cost of doing business as a functioning society. And as such it needs to be available to all, reasonably priced, with reasonable choice and variety for all. Period. I see no further points of debate to be honest with you. Nothing else holds water. Any argument or solution has to encompass all of society and not just individual circumstances.

I am truly more libertarian than anything, but in my opinion it isn't about civil liberties, it is about creating a functioning and self-sustaining society. Choice can and should be part of it, but access to basic, adequate, and affordable medical care (to include mental health care I should add) should be viewed as a human right and a basic requirement for our society, not an economic or political battle-ground.

/soap-box
 
Do we have Bernie's tax returns? I'd bet Trump paid a lower percentage than Sanders or Obama...well, maybe not Obama, because Obama isn't dumb enough to pay 24% of his income to taxes.

Let's get to the heart of the matter:

The right likes to say: Oh, Trump paid $34,000,000 in taxes. That is SOOOO much. He is so great. He pays too much!!! You only paid #30,000, you suck!!!

BUT, they fail to realize the most important aspect: It's not the total amount that is paid that is important. It is the percentage paid. Trump paid 24%. I paid 30%. I paid a higher percentage of my income to taxes than he did.

Be smart. Argue intelligently.

I don't care if Trump paid $100,000,000 in taxes. What I care about is what percentage of his income did he pay? If it is 10%, it's not enough. If it is 30%, then fantastic.

The silly thing about all of these arguments is that EVERYONE does EVERYTHING in their power to limit what they pay in taxes. But if someone figures out a better way to go it we feel the need to vilify them because, well probably because we are jealous. We dress it up in "it's not fair", but frankly if any of us were in the same position we would to THE EXACT SAME THING. Want a different proportion of tax burden? Then we have to change the system, not hound a single person about not paying what we think is not enough.

And I would love to see anyone point out any politician ever that said, "Hey I don't pay enough in taxes because I am already rich so to make it fair to everyone, I will bump my own rate up by 50% to make sure I pay enough."
 
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I don't buy this. I used to drink from this fountain, but seeing how my Church takes in 4-6 billion in tithing revenue a year and kicks back less than 1% of that to humanitarian funds...

If the Church that says they talk to God can't find charity, how can we expect anyone else to?

Look at the countries that have the best shot at the "American Dream" (ie, becoming more successful than your parents). We are falling down the list and falling fast. And the countries where they have a better shot at the Dream? Our so called "socialist" countries, France, Canada, Germany, etc.

Reaganomics has failed. Relying on the charity of the common man and church has failed. Trickle down has not worked.

It's time to go back to what works.

You are vastly ignorant of LDS budget issues. My former wife worked in the Presiding Bishop's Office and all the financial records passed under her nose. My beef about the LDS welfare system is that it's little better than US gov practices. Sure, the local bishops take the requests and interview the people they help, and there are home teachers and neighbors and ward members who know something about the reality of the needs, but there are a lot of people who prey upon the gullibility of bishops anyway, and get support for rent and food for months when they're doing nothing but smoking pot.

Most of the income today is actually from investments, in many solid corporations. They actually peel off income from these sources to fund welfare programs. Investing in farms and ranches relevant to having productive resources available in time of need.

My beef with that is they own bigger ranches than anyone, one in my area, and two along my route to and from town.

The LDS Church was in financial debt in 1900, borrowed twenty million from Chase Bank, and became politically connected with our progressive political interests. In the Great Depression, we established our Welfare system and began significantly helping others in times of need.

In the 1960s, a relative of mine was tasked with organizing the Church's finances to make better use of the funds, and he succeeded wildly, instituting policies that have made the LDS Church one of the best investment concerns in the world.

Still, of the money people pay in tithes, I could say it all goes towards welfare if you count the ranches and farms purchased and the expenditure on distribution infrastructure that now responds world-wide to human emergencies. humanitarian expenditures.

Further, to my knowledge, the LDS Church largely supports church facilities in third-world areas where the members are too poor to afford the buildings they meet in.
 
The silly thing about all of these arguments is that EVERYONE does EVERYTHING in their power to limit what they pay in taxes. But if someone figures out a better way to go it we feel the need to vilify them because, well probably because we are jealous. We dress it up in "it's not fair", but frankly if any of us were in the same position we would to THE EXACT SAME THING. Want a different proportion of tax burden? Then we have to change the system, not hound a single person about not paying what we think is not enough.

And I would love to see anyone point out any politician ever that said, "Hey I don't pay enough in taxes because I am already rich so to make it fair to everyone, I will bump my own rate up by 50% to make sure I pay enough."
Good post.
 
The silly thing about all of these arguments is that EVERYONE does EVERYTHING in their power to limit what they pay in taxes. But if someone figures out a better way to go it we feel the need to vilify them because, well probably because we are jealous. We dress it up in "it's not fair", but frankly if any of us were in the same position we would to THE EXACT SAME THING. Want a different proportion of tax burden? Then we have to change the system, not hound a single person about not paying what we think is not enough.

And I would love to see anyone point out any politician ever that said, "Hey I don't pay enough in taxes because I am already rich so to make it fair to everyone, I will bump my own rate up by 50% to make sure I pay enough."

Your rant is going off on a tangent here. Of course we will do whatever we can to get out of paying taxes. That was my initial attack on Trump. He is too stupid to hire a good accountant and is paying 24% instead of sub 20%.

I hire an accountant to take my taxes from 28% to sub 20% every year. I play by the rules and use them to my advantage.

BUT, that doesn't mean the rules are ok, or right.

It's horrible that Mitt and Buffet are paying sub 20% in income taxes and some poor, struggling single mother is paying over 20% on a $60,000 a year income. Or a father, who wants his wife to stay home and care for their kids, is paying 25% on $75,000 income and Mitt is paying 13%.

It's immoral.

Do you not agree?
 
Do we have Bernie's tax returns? I'd bet Trump paid a lower percentage than Sanders or Obama...well, maybe not Obama, because Obama isn't dumb enough to pay 24% of his income to taxes.

Let's get to the heart of the matter:

The right likes to say: Oh, Trump paid $34,000,000 in taxes. That is SOOOO much. He is so great. He pays too much!!! You only paid #30,000, you suck!!!

BUT, they fail to realize the most important aspect: It's not the total amount that is paid that is important. It is the percentage paid. Trump paid 24%. I paid 30%. I paid a higher percentage of my income to taxes than he did.

Be smart. Argue intelligently.

I don't care if Trump paid $100,000,000 in taxes. What I care about is what percentage of his income did he pay? If it is 10%, it's not enough. If it is 30%, then fantastic.

Bernie paid approximately 13-14% if I remember right. Same with Obama.

If you can find ways to pay less taxes, that's great. The money will still be used somewhere. If we make a lot of money and want to pay less taxes, we build or buy things. Lowers our tax rates, helps the economy. Oh the horror.
 
You are vastly ignorant of LDS budget issues. My former wife worked in the Presiding Bishop's Office and all the financial records passed under her nose. My beef about the LDS welfare system is that it's little better than US gov practices. Sure, the local bishops take the requests and interview the people they help, and there are home teachers and neighbors and ward members who know something about the reality of the needs, but there are a lot of people who prey upon the gullibility of bishops anyway, and get support for rent and food for months when they're doing nothing but smoking pot.

Most of the income today is actually from investments, in many solid corporations. They actually peel off income from these sources to fund welfare programs. Investing in farms and ranches relevant to having productive resources available in time of need.

My beef with that is they own bigger ranches than anyone, one in my area, and two along my route to and from town.

The LDS Church was in financial debt in 1900, borrowed twenty million from Chase Bank, and became politically connected with our progressive political interests. In the Great Depression, we established our Welfare system and began significantly helping others in times of need.

In the 1960s, a relative of mine was tasked with organizing the Church's finances to make better use of the funds, and he succeeded wildly, instituting policies that have made the LDS Church one of the best investment concerns in the world.

Still, of the money people pay in tithes, I could say it all goes towards welfare if you count the ranches and farms purchased and the expenditure on distribution infrastructure that now responds world-wide to human emergencies. humanitarian expenditures.

Further, to my knowledge, the LDS Church largely supports church facilities in third-world areas where the members are too poor to afford the buildings they meet in.

You say most is from investments. I believe that. Bloomberg estimates that the Church gets 5 BILLION a year in tithing alone. It wouldn't shock me if their investments were bringing a lot more than that.

My problem is that out of the 5 billion annually from tithes, they spend less than 1% of that on humanitarian aid.

And NO, tithing does not go towards welfare. Tithing goes towards buildings, etc. The scripture clearly explains what tithing is to be used for.

It's fast offerings that go towards welfare.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2012-07-18/how-the-mormons-make-money
 
The silly thing about all of these arguments is that EVERYONE does EVERYTHING in their power to limit what they pay in taxes. But if someone figures out a better way to go it we feel the need to vilify them because, well probably because we are jealous. We dress it up in "it's not fair", but frankly if any of us were in the same position we would to THE EXACT SAME THING. Want a different proportion of tax burden? Then we have to change the system, not hound a single person about not paying what we think is not enough.

And I would love to see anyone point out any politician ever that said, "Hey I don't pay enough in taxes because I am already rich so to make it fair to everyone, I will bump my own rate up by 50% to make sure I pay enough."

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/warren-buffett-wants-to-pay-higher-taxes/

Warren Buffet.
 
The silly thing about all of these arguments is that EVERYONE does EVERYTHING in their power to limit what they pay in taxes. But if someone figures out a better way to go it we feel the need to vilify them because, well probably because we are jealous. We dress it up in "it's not fair", but frankly if any of us were in the same position we would to THE EXACT SAME THING. Want a different proportion of tax burden? Then we have to change the system, not hound a single person about not paying what we think is not enough.

And I would love to see anyone point out any politician ever that said, "Hey I don't pay enough in taxes because I am already rich so to make it fair to everyone, I will bump my own rate up by 50% to make sure I pay enough."

Also, I don't think we have hounded a single person. I have used examples of people that aren't paying enough. What I'm saying is we need to quit taxing the middle class and down, while giving tax breaks and corporate welfare and lower tax rates to the top.
 
Bernie paid approximately 13-14% if I remember right. Same with Obama.

If you can find ways to pay less taxes, that's great. The money will still be used somewhere. If we make a lot of money and want to pay less taxes, we build or buy things. Lowers our tax rates, helps the economy. Oh the horror.

So, I was wrong on Bernie, but my point still stands.
 
Just think, if we didn't give the 20 million to the Millers, we could have told almost 9,000 households in Utah making $50,000 that they didn't have to pay any taxes this year.

Imagine all the good they could have done with that extra $2300?

The economy would explode.

Just got to get all these rich people off welfare.

You obviously don't understand how that works. The state did not hand the Millers 20 million dollars for the f****** arena!
The state didn't agree to a dime only SLC was involved and they still did not give the millers a 20 million dollar check. Most of the money that you're talking about is the increased tax burden on The Millers after renovation. The property value goes up and so do the property taxes. Salt Lake City wai ed that invrease. The rest of it comes from an urban renewal area in downtown Salt Lake City. You know from all the businesses that benefit from having 20,000 consumers come to their neighborhood a couple hundred times a year. That money was already allocated for development in that part of town. If they don't do the renovation there is no increase in property value they may leave and there could be a drastic decrease in the property's value.

It's a similar story with the Convention Center Hotel thing but at a County and state level. The state isn't going to give a hotel 100 million f****** dollars. They are going to give them a tax break in order to get them to build a Hotel that will augment the convention business. If no one builds that hotel(they won't without the break) then not only will the state get fewer conventions but there will be less tax revenue collected. Less sales tax, less transient room tax, and Les property tax as the site will either remain a Salt Lake County property or a f****** parking lot. It's a f****** win-win people.

Dig a little deeper than just the headline
 
You obviously don't understand how that works. The state did not hand the Millers 20 million dollars for the f****** arena!
The state didn't agree to a dime only SLC was involved and they still did not give the millers a 20 million dollar check. Most of the money that you're talking about is the increased tax burden on The Millers after renovation. The property value goes up and so do the property taxes. Salt Lake City wai ed that invrease. The rest of it comes from an urban renewal area in downtown Salt Lake City. You know from all the businesses that benefit from having 20,000 consumers come to their neighborhood a couple hundred times a year. That money was already allocated for development in that part of town. If they don't do the renovation there is no increase in property value they may leave and there could be a drastic decrease in the property's value.

It's a similar story with the Convention Center Hotel thing but at a County and state level. The state isn't going to give a hotel 100 million f****** dollars. They are going to give them a tax break in order to get them to build a Hotel that will augment the convention business. If no one builds that hotel(they won't without the break) then not only will the state get fewer conventions but there will be less tax revenue collected. Less sales tax, less transient room tax, and Les property tax as the site will either remain a Salt Lake County property or a f****** parking lot. It's a f****** win-win people.

Dig a little deeper than just the headline

Is it not money the Miller's owed the state, that they then said they didn't have to pay? If the Miller's had paid that money, could the state then theoretically reduce the tax burden on those with lower incomes?

Don't defend the Miller's. Their tax breaks get passed onto you. You are the one that will pay that 20 million dollar tax fee.

Also, don't use the threat of "the Miller's might leave". That is horse ****. The Miller's aren't going anywhere. They'd be stupid to relocate anywhere, even to Draper.
 
So, I was wrong on Bernie, but my point still stands.

Actually, it doesn't.

There are tons of factors that go into a persons tax rate from year to year. Judging based off of a simple percentage with no other information is lazy, stupid, and willfully ignorant.
 
Is it not money the Miller's owed the state, that they then said they didn't have to pay? If the Miller's had paid that money, could the state then theoretically reduce the tax burden on those with lower incomes?

Don't defend the Miller's. Their tax breaks get passed onto you. You are the one that will pay that 20 million dollar tax fee.

Also, don't use the threat of "the Miller's might leave". That is horse ****. The Miller's aren't going anywhere. They'd be stupid to relocate anywhere, even to Draper.

The state didn't give them a tax break! The dudes on the hill don't give a f*** about Salt Lake City. This was a hundred percent the Salt Lake City Council. No State money at all.
 
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