You just referred to Robert Whaley as a "2nd rate player." That's probably the nicest compliment he's ever received.
What does Hayward have to do his rookie season to be considered at least a decent pick?
- Thread starter CAE15
- Start date
Gyp Rosetti
Banned
I don't fully agree with this but I liked this post.
And if he doesnt, the FO will have a readymade excuse, that Wes benefitted from a longer college career and is older, whereas Hayward is still inexperienced.
I think he needs to show that he has at least one above average NBA skill. Honestly, that's all he needs. Whether it be shooting, passing, rebounding, ball handling, creating, toughness, hustle, defense, clutchness, ability to get to the free-throw line etc. He needs to show that he does have an NBA skill somewhere. If he does that, I'll believe he'll be able to continue and grow into a player worthy of the 9th pick.
Looking back at guys like Millsap, Maynor, Matthews, Brewer etc, all of those guys in their rookie year had a legit NBA skill. Millsap rebounded and hustled like an NBA guy, Maynor ran the team like an NBA guy, Matthews defended like an NBA guy, Brewer had the athleticism and defense of an NBA guy. After showing that they had that one skill, they had a reason to be on the court in certain situations, and when they were on the court they were able to develop the rest of their skills.
If Hayward can do that one thing that will give him an opportunity to get onto the court, he will have had a successful rookie season.
Looking back at guys like Millsap, Maynor, Matthews, Brewer etc, all of those guys in their rookie year had a legit NBA skill. Millsap rebounded and hustled like an NBA guy, Maynor ran the team like an NBA guy, Matthews defended like an NBA guy, Brewer had the athleticism and defense of an NBA guy. After showing that they had that one skill, they had a reason to be on the court in certain situations, and when they were on the court they were able to develop the rest of their skills.
If Hayward can do that one thing that will give him an opportunity to get onto the court, he will have had a successful rookie season.
InGameStrategy
Well-Known Member
Then again, she just barely graduated from high school.
InGameStrategy
Well-Known Member
The question should be: "What CAN Hayward do in his rookie season to be considered at least a decent pick?"
The answer is: Nothing.
Matthews earned his spot and represents a guy who Jerry Sloan loves - a guy willing to defend and rebound out of the two spot. He's not as long as Brewer, but gives solid effort all game long. Hayward isn't beating him out.
Korver will resign with the Jazz. The fans love him and he's the only consistent long distance threat that the team has other than Okur (which isn't a good thing against teams like the Thunder and Lakers who have multiple quality options at the 5/4 spot that allow them the opportunity to waste one of their post players to guard the perimeter and keep another in the lane against Utah's significantly smaller power forwards). Hayward isn't nearly as good a shooter as Korver and won't beat him out for the backup minutes at the two.
He's not going to beat out either Andrei or CJ at the three. Period. Regardless of how bad Miles is at passing the ball or rebounding.
He won't play the four. He's a stick and doesn't have the height to play the position, especially in the Western conference.
As such, the Jazz pissed away a lottery selection on a guy for a position that the Jazz don't have a need for, while we sit and contemplate, along with Deron Williams, why our starting power forward and starting center combined for a grand total of 0.77 blocks per game.
Meanwhile, the Thunder happily trade up for a guy that gives them exactly what they need - a defensive and rebounding presence in the post, who is, oddly enough, a very good pick and roll defender - something that will hamper the Jazz as that's what Sloan loves to run). (And, remarkably, it's was the exact same need that the Jazz had as neither Boozer, who O'Conner seems intent on resigning, and Okur are capable of doing and Fez is simply a tomato can that can't rebound or block shots either.)
The guy was a lottery pick. He should be a starter, especially on a team that has some obvious holes in terms of match-ups against the top teams in the Western division. I don't see how he is anything but the third option on this team at the two positions that he'll be asked to play. He had a Bird-esque run in this past NCAA tournament, but let's be honest - he's not the second coming of the guy.
The Jazz needed immediate post defense out of this draft. To paraphrase Les Grossman, they **** the money bed, and the Thunder, who is their immediate competitors in the division, were more than happy to pluck up the most NBA ready to play now post guy in this draft when the Jazz passed on him.
The Thunder can now throw Aldrich, Krstic, Collison and Ibaka at the Lakers, while the Jazz toil along with Okur (who might never be the same player after suffering an achilles injury and was never a good defender in the first place), Fesenko and Koufus.
I'm just glad we have 6'6" Millsap as our best shot blocker/post defender. (Images of Pau Gasol lobbing hooks over he and Boozer's outstretched arms are haunting me.)
I hope the kid is legit. The problem is, I don't think we'll ever get the opportunity to find out if he is or not.
The answer is: Nothing.
Matthews earned his spot and represents a guy who Jerry Sloan loves - a guy willing to defend and rebound out of the two spot. He's not as long as Brewer, but gives solid effort all game long. Hayward isn't beating him out.
Korver will resign with the Jazz. The fans love him and he's the only consistent long distance threat that the team has other than Okur (which isn't a good thing against teams like the Thunder and Lakers who have multiple quality options at the 5/4 spot that allow them the opportunity to waste one of their post players to guard the perimeter and keep another in the lane against Utah's significantly smaller power forwards). Hayward isn't nearly as good a shooter as Korver and won't beat him out for the backup minutes at the two.
He's not going to beat out either Andrei or CJ at the three. Period. Regardless of how bad Miles is at passing the ball or rebounding.
He won't play the four. He's a stick and doesn't have the height to play the position, especially in the Western conference.
As such, the Jazz pissed away a lottery selection on a guy for a position that the Jazz don't have a need for, while we sit and contemplate, along with Deron Williams, why our starting power forward and starting center combined for a grand total of 0.77 blocks per game.
Meanwhile, the Thunder happily trade up for a guy that gives them exactly what they need - a defensive and rebounding presence in the post, who is, oddly enough, a very good pick and roll defender - something that will hamper the Jazz as that's what Sloan loves to run). (And, remarkably, it's was the exact same need that the Jazz had as neither Boozer, who O'Conner seems intent on resigning, and Okur are capable of doing and Fez is simply a tomato can that can't rebound or block shots either.)
The guy was a lottery pick. He should be a starter, especially on a team that has some obvious holes in terms of match-ups against the top teams in the Western division. I don't see how he is anything but the third option on this team at the two positions that he'll be asked to play. He had a Bird-esque run in this past NCAA tournament, but let's be honest - he's not the second coming of the guy.
The Jazz needed immediate post defense out of this draft. To paraphrase Les Grossman, they **** the money bed, and the Thunder, who is their immediate competitors in the division, were more than happy to pluck up the most NBA ready to play now post guy in this draft when the Jazz passed on him.
The Thunder can now throw Aldrich, Krstic, Collison and Ibaka at the Lakers, while the Jazz toil along with Okur (who might never be the same player after suffering an achilles injury and was never a good defender in the first place), Fesenko and Koufus.
I'm just glad we have 6'6" Millsap as our best shot blocker/post defender. (Images of Pau Gasol lobbing hooks over he and Boozer's outstretched arms are haunting me.)
I hope the kid is legit. The problem is, I don't think we'll ever get the opportunity to find out if he is or not.
You goin' someplace? I think we'll get a chance to find out. Why wouldn't we?
InGameStrategy
Well-Known Member
A few excerpts from the KFAN replay of interview with Butler's coach regarding Gordon Hayward.
He's an all-state tennis player. And now you've got a guy who spent only two years focused on basketball, and he made stride after stride.
He's part of a group of freshmen who came in and grew as a group, blossoming to the final four.
It's huge that he can take the pressure off Deron, who was double-team from time to time.
He went through a dry spell on 3-points in his sophomore year, but he doesn't force a lot of shots.
He always gets by his first defender. You'll have GH in situations where the defense is closing out on him [huh?].
He's an all-state tennis player. And now you've got a guy who spent only two years focused on basketball, and he made stride after stride.
He's part of a group of freshmen who came in and grew as a group, blossoming to the final four.
It's huge that he can take the pressure off Deron, who was double-team from time to time.
He went through a dry spell on 3-points in his sophomore year, but he doesn't force a lot of shots.
He always gets by his first defender. You'll have GH in situations where the defense is closing out on him [huh?].
carolinajazz
Well-Known Member
....I think this kid is going to average 10 points and about 3 rebounds and 2 assists coming off the bench for us next year! He's already smarter than 80% of todays NBA players.....has the benefit of the Jazz "system" and Deron knows how to get the ball to guys who use their heads to get open!
seattlejazzfan
Well-Known Member
Just to be clear, I did imply Hayward should be a better passer than Wesley. As far as putting it on the floor, remember Matthews averaged 18 ppg (to Hayward's 15 ppg) and was more efficient from the floor despite playing in the Big East to Hayward's Horizon league. Let's face it - coming out of college the Jazz probably got a better player - and prospect - undrafted last year than they did at #9 overall this year. Give them credit for landing Matthews and now that Hayward is a Jazz, I'm behind him 100% - but it is what it is.
Holy crap! I like Matthews as much as the next guy, but I figured what we all liked about him was that he wasn't supposed to be any good and he turned out to be a solid player. To think that Hayward isn't going to be any better than Matthews, I don't know. I think you all are just dumping all your disappointment that we didn't get a top 5 pick on him. The more I hear about him the more excited I am that we got him.
The SOB lead his team to the final 4! What were they ranked going in? How many of you had Butler on your bracket in the final 4?
I'll say it again and again.
WINNERS WIN. HAYWARD IS A WINNER.
Now once we offload the team losers and increase the winner to loser ratio on this team we'll be alright. Deron is a winner. Matthews is a winner. Millsap is a winner. Okur is a loser. Boozer is a loser. CJ Miles is a loser. Hayward is a winner. Things are looking up.
*before anyone wants to show me stats to show me who winners and losers are, save it. Losers are very often people with tremendous talents, who often perform well given the right set of circumstances. Winners are people who might lack the natural ability, are in unfavorable circumstances, but find ways to win. There's a difference between being good at something and doing it well and simply being a person who refuses to lose. Okur can lose and go sleep like a kitten, I'm sure. Boozer can lose and be perfectly happy if he got his numbers that night. CJ Smiles is just happy to be where he is. The other guys fight to win and they take it personally when they lose.
mellow
Well-Known Member
Three things I want to see his rookie season:
1- Can he learn the Jazz offense plays and defense rotations.
2- Mentally tough enough to handle Sloan screaming, Deron's hazing, Fanz booing, Kobe posterizing, and sitting on the bench behind chucker.
3- Have success in defending bottom tier sf, and success initiating the offense.
Top three cynical:
1- Does he smile while wearing a suit and sitting on the second row?
2- His luggage makes it to all the road games.
3- He learns to drive to Orem.
1- Can he learn the Jazz offense plays and defense rotations.
2- Mentally tough enough to handle Sloan screaming, Deron's hazing, Fanz booing, Kobe posterizing, and sitting on the bench behind chucker.
3- Have success in defending bottom tier sf, and success initiating the offense.
Top three cynical:
1- Does he smile while wearing a suit and sitting on the second row?
2- His luggage makes it to all the road games.
3- He learns to drive to Orem.
UGLI baby
Well-Known Member
carolinajazz
Well-Known Member
..
How can you say it again and again that Hayward is already in the same class of winners as Deron, Matthews and Millsap when he has not yet played a single NBA game. Too many college heroes have turned out to be duds in the NBA. Hopefully Hayward turns out alright but at this point only Deron, Matthews and Millsap are the only real winners on the team. And CJ's not so bad, he's improved too.
The Thriller
Well-Known Member
How many national championships has Kobe Bryant, Lebron James, and Dwight Howard won?
What about Amare, KG, Chris Bosh, D-Wade, Dirk, and CP3?
LOL, just look at the Final Four MVP candidates from last year:
Jon Scheyer, Kyle Singler, Nolan Smith, who the hell are these players?
Lets look at some of the stars from 2005-1985 in the NCAA:
https://www.betting-collegebasketball.com/mvp.php
1985
Ed Pinckney, Villanova
14.0
1986
Ellison, Pervis, Louisville
18.0
1987
Keith Smart, Indiana
17.5
1988
Danny Manning, Kansas
28.0
1989
Glen Rice, Michigan
29.5
1990
Anderson Hunt, UNLV
24.5
1991
Christian Laettner, Duke
23.0
1992
Bobby Hurley, Duke
17.5
1993
Donald Williams, N. Carolina
25.0
1994
Corliss Williamson, Arkansas
26.0
1995
Ed O'Bannon, UCLA
22.5
1996
Tony Delk, Kentucky
22.0
1997
Miles Simon, Arizona
27.0
1998
Jeff Sheppard, Kentucky
21.5
1999
Richard Hamilton, Connecticut
25.5
2000
Mateen Cleaves, Michigan St.
14.5
2001
Shane Battier, Duke
21.5
2002
Juan Dixon, Maryland
25.5
2003
Carmelo Anthony, Syracuse
26.5
2004
Emeka Okafor, Connecticut
21.0
2005
Sean May, North Carolina
I'm willing to bet that most of you don't recognize more than 1/3 of this list.
This "he's a winner because he did well in the NCAA tournament" is completely overrated. HS and College success doesn't mean much of anything in the NBA.
I think ultimately Hayward will end up be similar to a small forward version of Jeff Hornacek. A guy plays smart, hard, shoots well, and is much more effective than you would think he should be just by looking at him.
As for this year... as long as improves his jumpshot (shouldn't be a problem since he can work on it full time now) and shows he can compete on defense and the boards, I'll be happy. He's smart enough, has good enough fundamentals, is unselfish, competes hard, and has a good enough work ethic that the other things will take care of itself as he gets more experience.
As for this year... as long as improves his jumpshot (shouldn't be a problem since he can work on it full time now) and shows he can compete on defense and the boards, I'll be happy. He's smart enough, has good enough fundamentals, is unselfish, competes hard, and has a good enough work ethic that the other things will take care of itself as he gets more experience.
Stifle Tower
Punch Bowl Re-Filler
I disagree with your assumption. I don't think the Jazz wil re-sign Korver. If Greg Miller has shown us one thing, it's that he's willing to sacrifice bit players to save money even if it leaves the Jazz a little less competitive or thinner on the bench (Maynor and Brewer last season).
I've lambasted Miller for last season's trades, especially giving up Maynor. But I'm really not going to be upset IF the Jazz don't re-sign Korver. Yes, he set a 3-pt record. But it wasn't like he took a ton of shots and was a real 6th-man for us. And his FT percentage took a nose dive (below 80%).
Assume the Jazz don't re-sign Korver and they let Boozer walk (no S&T). And the only other moves are re-signing Matthews and Fesenko, and three rookies or low-salary vets to get to a 13-man roster (like Evans, Gaines and Jeffers).
If my calculations are correct, that puts the Jazz pretty close to the $68M projected luxury tax threshold. So resigning Korver would actually cost the team an additional $8-$10M in salary and taxes (assuming his market value is around $4-$5M). Miller ain't gonna spend that kind of money for a backup. Besides, the Jazz don't really need him.
Here's what I see in terms of mins at the 2-3-4:
PF- Millsap (34) AK (14)
SF- AK (20) CJ (18) Honzward (10)
SG - Matthews (34) CJ (14)
Obviously, there are other permutations. Does Koufos get a chance to play some minutes behind Millsap? Then AK plays fewer at PF and more at SF. I actually hope Honzward gets more P/T, but 10 is probably the minimum he gets.
Yes, the Jazz have a thin bench. If someone gets hurt, we're down to seeing a guy like Jeffers, Kosta or Evans come in for extended playing time. But the Jazz don't have a choice. Not until AK's salary comes off the books. Then Utah can use that $17M on multiple players to increase their depth - or perhaps add a starter and a decent backup.