National Lampoon's European Vacation staring Donald Trump

[idestroyedthetoilet]

**** hannity.
He is the worst. Just spews hate non stop

I loved to turn him on for 10 minutes on days the stock market tanked when Obama was in office. His meltdowns were hilarious.

 

[Ron Mexico]

You prove my point while simultaneously avoiding the greater picture that is our human experience. It doesn't do us any good to try sweeping all those 800 lb gorillas under a rug. Should people seek out better info? Of course. Do we by-and-large? Of course not.

Also, it's not constructive to continuously bellitle others with your arrogant line that you can find good journalism but nobody else can or does. It is also steeped in hubris. That's your invisible crutch and assumes way too much.

If everyone put in the critical thinking effort that you have shown to do over the years then this conversation would rarely come up.

Again I disagree. I think a lot of people seek out good info. I think it's abundant. Most peoplei meet who work in the media at the local level care about their jobs and do good work. Most of the big news groups produce great news. Yes, tv news shows produce pieces that are attention grabbing and sensationalism but most of the news they report is still good info.

My response of stating that there is good news and there is good info is only in response to people that constantly state made up facts about it. Like how media has this liberal agenda and all media is trying to feed us propaganda. Or how bad the media is at bad at their jobs as a whole. It is constructive to encourage people to seek out better info.

A lot of people want to believe in this pretend conspiracy theory that some liberal media mogul controls the media and makes their news people report only what they want and that is just a silly lie.

For example multiple people in this thread think that the media has a group agenda to make Trump look bad ands that's why people don't like him. Those sweeping statements are incorrect and somewhat silly.

Most people don't like Trump based on real quotes, real footage, real interviews and his personality. Most people didn't really like him before he even decided to run for president. Personally I dislike his personality but that's a very small part of why I didn't vote for him. I didn't vote for him because I disagree with his stance on most issues. That isn't a reason not to like him though, just not to vote for him. I dislike him because he treats people poorly and is very dishonest and pretends we are all dumb enough to just believe his lies.

 

[Ron Mexico]

I loved to turn him on for 10 minutes on days the stock market tanked when Obama was in office. His meltdowns were hilarious.

I still listen to him now and then because it is entertaining and it helps me understand some family members and other people. A lot of people who are conservative and passionate about politics tend to listen to him and repeat his arguments.

Plus it makes it more entertaining to listen to his rants and then get on jazz fans and read babe posting his new thoughts on something that somehow happens to correlate.

 

[gandalfe]

People like to be told what they already know. Remember that. They get uncomfortable when you tell them new things. New things…well, new things aren’t what they expect. They like to know that, say, a dog will bite a man. That is what dogs do. They don’t want to know that a man bites a dog, because the world is not supposed to happen like that. In short, what people think they want is news, but what they really crave is olds.

- Sir Terry Pratchett

 

[idestroyedthetoilet]

Again I disagree.

You haven't addressed much of anything I've written so I don't see where you disagree.

------------------------------------

To nitpick a small portion of your respect for our local media, I can't stand their conviction to covering both sides no matter what. They screw up a lot of good articles by justifying utter bull **** by acknowledging comments from someone or a group without adding needed context or caveats. A lot of people see stuff like this as agenda driven bias when it's more likely naive reporters, results driven editors, audience catering, or simply over-journalising, etc.

 

[idestroyedthetoilet]

One thing worth pointing out is most of the national media **** storm revolves around the political people fighting over opinion presented as critical thinking journalism that's clearly biased. Ignore all that and you won't have a problem.

 

[Stoked]

Trump just called the EU a “foe” lmfao.

/facepalm

 

[Joe Bagadonuts]

Yes, we have always had press outlets that were essentially organs of particular parties. That has really always been the case, even though our parties have obviously changed throughout our history. And, as I said earlier, I do recognize "overkill" when I see it on MSNBC. I could turn off the cable news entirely, and it's likely a good idea to at least take a break from it, which I do. But, from my perspective, it's senseless to watch Fox. I find many of the guests on MSNBC to be excellent at analysing the news of the day. The hosts at times wear on me, and that's where I see the overkill or hyper partnership most of the time. Well, we are who we are, and it's tough to get away from that. As I've said many times, I would like to understand better why liberals and conservatives see the world so differently. Frankly, it baffles me. But, then I ask myself "how can anyone not see right through Trump?", and I am once again reminded on what side of the divide I find myself on. And that really cannot change, whether I ever understand the "why" of it all or not.

Does it make sense to you that conservatives had a big problem with Clinton and attacked him for his ethics, but the press and his fans acted like questioning someone's morality was so far off the subject to be desperate and laughable. And then the conservatives had a big problem with his wife's ethics and attacked her for her obviously illegal use of a private email server, but the press and her fans acted like raising such issues was desperate and laughably meaningless. So along comes Trump and the conservatives say, "So ethics and morality don't matter? The only thing relevant is getting what you want? Well, for decades we've watched this country move in a direction we don't like and so now we're going to support a guy who says that he's going to take it where we want it to go, and we don't care about his ethics or morality any more than the Dems have cared about the ethics and morality of their candidates."

Conservatives have gotten sick and tired of watching pompous asses (Peter Storzck is a great example) lie to our faces while claiming moral superiority. They are happy that they have finally elected a candidate who is getting things done, and doesn't give a **** what the left says or thinks, because it's abundantly obvious that the left has not given a **** about what the right says or thinks.

Personally, I'm not a Trump voter. I was a big fan of Mitt. But my wife once said to me in regard to Trump (who boggles both of our minds), "Often, in order to make real change, it needs to be drastic. Maybe the drastic change that Trump is making is the only way."

My guess is that the pendulum will next swing even farther to the left than ever before. Those of us in the middle (I consider myself to be center/right) might never see national leadership that we truly agree with.

 

[Joe Bagadonuts]

I'll put up $300 right now you can't dunk

I've met Siro. I think you're going to be out $300 if he decides he wants your money.

 

[Joe Bagadonuts]

Baffled by Mormon support of Trump.

My dad supports Trump too. I almost never speak with him because of his views. That's not all there is to it but it's a big part of our relationship disintegration.The interesting thing is that Hitler basically killed my grandfather(my dad's father) by sending him to battle on the Eastern front.

I put Trump in the same category as Hitler and treat people who support him as I wish people who supported Hitler would have been treated. We can't ignore this cancer and hope it goes away. It's not about politics, it's about humanity.

The Trump/Hitler comparisons are ridiculous.

 

[Joe Bagadonuts]

I haven’t been hearing this.
What I have heard is that around election time Russia got involved with the election and that trumps team may have had something to did with Russia’s involvement.

Haven’t really heard anything about trump currently working for Russia but I figure you see and hear what you want to see and hear often.

You have not heard these claims? Open your ears. The left has been screaming this stuff non-stop.

 

[Joe Bagadonuts]

I’m pretty sure he likes trump but is just very reluctant to admit it for some reason.

As I've said many times, there are some things I like about Trump and a lot of things I don't. I didn't (and won't) vote for him. I think it's sad that our system can't produce better candidates than it does. IMO there are clearly many better choices for president than those we are presented with, but the way things are set up we are almost always going to end up forced to pick between power-starved narcissists.

 

[Red]

Does it make sense to you that conservatives had a big problem with Clinton and attacked him for his ethics, but the press and his fans acted like questioning someone's morality was so far off the subject to be desperate and laughable. And then the conservatives had a big problem with his wife's ethics and attacked her for her obviously illegal use of a private email server, but the press and her fans acted like raising such issues was desperate and laughably meaningless. So along comes Trump and the conservatives say, "So ethics and morality don't matter? The only thing relevant is getting what you want? Well, for decades we've watched this country move in a direction we don't like and so now we're going to support a guy who says that he's going to take it where we want it to go, and we don't care about his ethics or morality any more than the Dems have cared about the ethics and morality of their candidates."

Conservatives have gotten sick and tired of watching pompous asses (Peter Storzck is a great example) lie to our faces while claiming moral superiority. They are happy that they have finally elected a candidate who is getting things done, and doesn't give a **** what the left says or thinks, because it's abundantly obvious that the left has not given a **** about what the right says or thinks.

Personally, I'm not a Trump voter. I was a big fan of Mitt. But my wife once said to me in regard to Trump (who boggles both of our minds), "Often, in order to make real change, it needs to be drastic. Maybe the drastic change that Trump is making is the only way."

My guess is that the pendulum will next swing even farther to the left than ever before. Those of us in the middle (I consider myself to be center/right) might never see national leadership that we truly agree with.

I'm not sure how to go about answering your questions, because my politicization took place way back in the Johnson administration and the Vietnam era, and there have been several administrations since then. I remember being engrossed on a daily basis in the Watergate hearings and the eventual resignation of Richard Nixon, who seems like a choir boy to me now in comparison to Trump. The Cilvil Rights movement, Vietnam, and Watergate was a period of polarization that was likely even worse then today, but it's too distant in memory now, and it no longer seems worse then today to me. I remember marches on Washington of half a million people, yet in my mind it seems like today is the most divisive and polarized era I have witnessed in my lifetime. That is how it seems to me, but it may be because the 60's and 70's are just too distant now.

As far as the Clinton presidency in particular, since you ask, it's a blank to me at the moment. Nothing really stands out. I remember Lewinsky(sp?), but I don't even recall the impeachment proceedings.

In the Trump era, as you know, (you've even cautioned me to stay away from MSNBC), I've been engrossed in the Mueller investigation. I added several posts to the Comey thread the past couple of days, in response to the most recent indictments of 12 Russian military intelligence officers. My main focus is getting to the bottom of the Russian interference in the 2016 election, and learning whether or not any Americans were complicit in that intrusion, or actually aided it.

On the policy front, I was appalled at the withdrawal of the US from the Paris Climate Accord. Appalled by the seperation of children at the border. I'm baffled that any American, with the exception of the worst Americans, would find making meanness, anger, and hatred the defining traits of a president, and as being something that qualifies as leadership. Which is why I said in one of these threads in recent days, that although I do depend on media like the Washington Post for intelligent analysis, I only have to witness one of his rallies to know this is the lowest point I've witnessed so far in a chief executive of my country. If that's OK with conservatives, and it's all simply a result of swinging pendulums, and so now it's their turn, then I wish I were young enough, or at least wealthy enough, to move back to Ireland, or somewhere other then here. I hear Ecuador is affordable.

And now I'm appalled by the fact that he learned of these first indictments of actual Russian state actors, thereby making Putin an unindicted co-conspirator, before he left for Europe, yet he still said everything he has said since leaving for Europe, including having the gall to say talking with Putin would be "the easiest" thing he would face on that trip. I expect my president to stand up and defend my country, not be a lapdog for the head of a mafia state. It really disgusts me.

I really don't see how we can expect the pendulum to swing back to the far left, and all of the people comprising Trump's base just say "oh, well, their turn". I disagree. We're already involved in some specie of civil war. I don't think a pendulum model is a model for reconciliation, or sustainable as how our body politic will function going forward. But I certainly don't have the answers.

Probably have not answered your question at all, just thinking off the top. Been focused on the Comey thread due to the most recent developments there...

 

[Joe Bagadonuts]

I rely primarily on print media for news, the NATO summit being no exception. I don't find that they are staying silent on this "stuff" at all. For broadcast media, I watch mostly MSNBC, and have not found them to be silent on those things you've brought up here either. Now, you mention the things you believe Trump is doing to Russia that Putin cannot possibly be happy about. But let's take a closer look.

One, kicking out diplomats. The last time was following the poisoning of Russians, on British soil, by Russian agents. How exactly did Trump respond?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...1e850a-3f1b-11e8-974f-aacd97698cef_story.html

"President Trump seemed distracted in March as his aides briefed him at his Mar-a-Lago resort on the administration’s plan to expel 60 Russian diplomats and suspected spies.
The United States, they explained, would be ousting roughly the same number of Russians as its European allies — part of a coordinated move to punish Moscow for the poisoning of a former Russian spy and his daughter on British soil.

“We’ll match their numbers,” Trump instructed, according to a senior administration official. “We’re not taking the lead. We’re matching.”

The next day, when the expulsions were announced publicly, Trump erupted, officials said. To his shock and dismay, France and Germany were each expelling only four Russian officials — far fewer than the 60 his administration had decided on.

The president, who seemed to believe that other individual countries would largely equal the United States, was furious that his administration was being portrayed in the media as taking by far the toughest stance on Russia......

......The incident reflects a tension at the core of the Trump administration’s increasingly hard-nosed stance on Russia: The president instinctually opposes many of the punitive measures pushed by his Cabinet that have crippled his ability to forge a close relationship with Russian President Vladimir Putin."

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Two. Increasing NATO defense spending. This has been an issue, not just with Trump, but with previous presidents as well. At the summit, in order to make it even more difficult for NATO members to meet his demands, Trump insisted they increase their defense spending to 2% of the GDP now, and further, increase it to 4% over the longer run. But, two things need to be pointed out regarding his closing comments that NATO members agreed to increase their spending. First, Macron of France essentially pointed out that this was bs on Trump's part. The truth was that members simply reaffirmed their commitment to 2% of their GDP by 2024, an agreement already in place before the summit.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/07/12/politics/trump-nato-spending-claims-reaction-intl/index.html

And the second thing to be pointed out is how much Trump does not even understand about how NATO works:

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...falsely-claims-nato-countries-owe-united-sta/

Really, we should be incredulous that our President is so dense in that respect, and apparently refuses to learn the facts before opening his mouth.

----------------------------------------
Three. Putin cannot like Trump attacking Germany over the Russian pipeline. It's true that the Russian economy benefits from that arrangement, and would not be happy if it somehow ended. But, Putin's strategic policy is to see NATO weakened. It has to be music to his ears to see Trump attacking Germany in the first place. Anything that works to weaken NATO is in Putin's first and foremost interest.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/07/11/politics/trump-nato-diplomats-reaction/index.html

https://www.dw.com/en/opinion-a-nato-summit-in-donald-trumps-parallel-universe/a-44639992

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2018/07/trump-goes-full-no-puppet-youre-the-puppet-on-angela-merkel

"Since taking office more than 18 months ago, Donald Trump has treated Russian President Vladimir Putin with the sort of respect and deference of which U.S. allies can only dream. In that time, he’s leaked information about a classified Israeli intelligence operation to two Russian envoys; hesitated to blame the Kremlin for the poisoning of an ex-Russian spy; exploded with rage when he found out the U.S. had expelled more Russian diplomats than European countries had following the incident; congratulated Putin on his election victory, against the express directive of senior aides; assured Russian officials that plans for sanctions announcedby U.N. Ambassador Nikki Haley in response to the Kremlin’s support of Syrian President Bashar al-Assad, whose actions have been likened by Trump to those of an “animal,” were never gonna happen; refused to condemn documented Russian meddling in the 2016 presidential election; and asked for Russia to be let back into the G7 after it was kicked out for invading another European country. All of which is to say, his claims during a breakfast meeting in Brussels on Wednesday came as something of a shock.....

......By pointing a diminutive orange finger at Germany, Trump is trying to spread the blame, deflecting attention from his own administration’s all-too-cozy ties to Putin, whom he’ll visit later this week. It’s the same move he pulled in October 2016, when he so eloquently told Hillary Clinton, “No puppet, no puppet. You’re the puppet.” For their part, the Europeans were not impressed; Merkel, who grew up in a Germany that was literally partially controlled by Russia, remarked that the country had been “free of Russian control since the fall of the Berlin Wall”.

--------------------------------------------

So, in conclusion, I find that the mainstream media, and I take it you mean outlets like MSNBC, CNN, the New York Times, the Washington Post, etc. by "mainstream" in this instance, does not stay silent on any of the things you mention. But they do not interpret those things the same way you do. Fox News, on the other hand, likely does agree with your take. It's your right to get your news from Fox, if in fact you do, and it's not my place at all to criticise you for that, if that is the case. We hear what we want to hear. That goes for me as well. This comment is simply to point out the sources I turn to have not been silent at all.

I will agree that we hear what we want to hear. That is true of you, me and everyone. We tend to notice information that supports our view of the world, and disregard info that rebuts our view of the world. To my way of hearing things, mainstream sources continue to claim that Trump is soft on Russia, while ignoring the obvious negative implications toward Russia that many of Trump's actions are having.

Regarding your first point on the Russian diplomats, what is the source of the report? A leaker? Doesn't it seem more relevant to judge his administration on the action they actually took than on some supposed information about how Trump felt about the action they took? Even if the information was accurate, why do Trump's feelings mean more than his action to you? He kicked out 60 diplomats. That is not a small deal, and whether on purpose or not, a much larger number than European countries did. Certainly that's not something Putin is likely to be happy about (which was my point).

Regarding your second point, everything I've seen (even in left wing media) indicates that European allies have agreed to increase their defense spending as a result of Trump's efforts. They signed a statement that spoke of their “unwavering commitment” and stated that they are “committed to improving the balance of sharing the costs and responsibilities of alliance membership.” That means more money, which is what I claimed. So here again, why would Putin be happy about this?

Regarding your third point, I guess it's possible that Russia sees NATO discord as a bigger win than economic activity that would help their output grow to within reach of an average sized NATO member. If I were Putin I think I'd place a pretty high value on selling all that oil to Germany, but maybe he will see that differently.

 

[One Brow]

Mueller said Russians got involved by using a phishing scheme (not hacking) and that there was no collusion. And that the interference had no impact on the election.

Phishing is a hacking technique.

 

[Red]

I will agree that we hear what we want to hear. That is true of you, me and everyone. We tend to notice information that supports our view of the world, and disregard info that rebuts our view of the world. To my way of hearing things, mainstream sources continue to claim that Trump is soft on Russia, while ignoring the obvious negative implications toward Russia that many of Trump's actions are having.

Regarding your first point on the Russian diplomats, what is the source of the report? A leaker? Doesn't it seem more relevant to judge his administration on the action they actually took than on some supposed information about how Trump felt about the action they took? Even if the information was accurate, why do Trump's feelings mean more than his action to you? He kicked out 60 diplomats. That is not a small deal, and whether on purpose or not, a much larger number than European countries did. Certainly that's not something Putin is likely to be happy about (which was my point).

Regarding your second point, everything I've seen (even in left wing media) indicates that European allies have agreed to increase their defense spending as a result of Trump's efforts. They signed a statement that spoke of their “unwavering commitment” and stated that they are “committed to improving the balance of sharing the costs and responsibilities of alliance membership.” That means more money, which is what I claimed. So here again, why would Putin be happy about this?

Regarding your third point, I guess it's possible that Russia sees NATO discord as a bigger win than economic activity that would help their output grow to within reach of an average sized NATO member. If I were Putin I think I'd place a pretty high value on selling all that oil to Germany, but maybe he will see that differently.

I dont trust the man. If Mueller clears him of any and all wrongdoing, I'll move on from that component of my distrust. It did take him 6 months to finally implement those sanctions. To me he acts as a president who simply does not care that our 2016 election was attacked under orders of Vladimir Putin. I think all of his statements since he was briefed on the first indictments of Russian military intelligence officers, officers of GRU, meaning Putin has to have been behind the attack on our election system, tells me that I should not trust him.

So, I am going to focus on his feelings as suggestive of where his heart lies. I believe he had no choice but to implement those sanctions in March, but he can't win all the time. A win for him there would have been to tear up the sanctions drawn up by Congress. I just have no reason to trust the man where Russia is concerned.

As I said in my previous comment, if you take every comment he has made since he was briefed on the latest indictments, including "rigged witch hunt", Putin would be "the easiest" of his talks, the attacks on Germany over the gas line from Russia( which I see as an attack on Germany and NATO, not an attack on Russia), he hoped he and Putin could be friends one day, etc., I am personally astounded that this is the Commander-in-Chief of my country. He had just learned a week or so ago that Putin has to have been personally responsible for the attacks!!

I just have no reason to trust him. Further, he is meeting Putin with no other American but a translator present. To me, and we'll just have to agree to disagree I guess, he is indeed acting more like a puppet of Putin. I forget, off the top, which of our intelligence guys, I think it was Brennan, said he thinks Trump is afraid of Putin for some reason. Yeah, I think so, but I've delved into it, such as reading Luke Harding's "Collusion", an analysis of Christopher Steele and the infamous dossier.

As far as NATO, he sabotaged that meeting by telling them they would put up 4%, not 2% of their GDP. They are only agreeing to what was already agreed to prior to the NATO meeting. 2% by 2024. Macron was forced to correct the impression Trump gave that they had agreed to more then what had already been agreed to.

As for the last point, the pipe line is a private development that is indeed vital to their weak economy. But he can gleefully cheer the complete dissolution of NATO, which is not happening yet of course, and still have that pipeline. I don't believe it's a choice of one or the other. The weakening of NATO, the appearance of chaos in NATO is a dream come true for Putin, I believe.

And, beyond NATO, there are other problems:

https://www.politico.com/magazine/s...ud-with-europe-is-worse-than-you-think-218969

 

[fishonjazz]

You have not heard these claims? Open your ears. The left has been screaming this stuff non-stop.

I think maybe you listen to the left media more than me.

 

[DasJazz]

Oh ya, that's it. Has nothing to do with him being a piece of **** that I wouldn't trust to walk my dog, but is nevertheless the president because the racists would like someone who acts nasty to immigrants.

I see MSNBC and CNN have a deep hold on you. My goodness, it's downright comical that you guys can spew so much hate while simultaneously claiming the other side or person is doing the very thing you're crying about. And by the way, it's not immigrants he's worried about, it's illegal immigrants like the one who killed Kate Steinle and many others, that shouldn't be that hard to process. It really isn't that hard to come to the USA legally, but let's not talk about that, right?

Thanks for making my point.

 

[gandalfe]

Oh man. I got my names mixed up...it’s time to get some sleep.

Rosenstein. It was Rosenstein. I think.

Rammstein?

 

[Stoked]

I see MSNBC and CNN have a deep hold on you. My goodness, it's downright comical that you guys can spew so much hate while simultaneously claiming the other side or person is doing the very thing you're crying about. And by the way, it's not immigrants he's worried about, it's illegal immigrants like the one who killed Kate Steinle and many others, that shouldn't be that hard to process. It really isn't that hard to come to the USA legally, but let's not talk about that, right?

Thanks for making my point.

Well, when that’s not the topic of the conversation...

But I’m sure they’d be happy to talk about that too.

Also there is a fundamental difference between opposing one man for his actions and opposing an entire group based on generalizations.

Don’t confuse Siro with Thriller.