White House Discord: Bob Woodward Book, NYT Op-Ed

[Red]

From what I had read it was the other way around. Harris issues the quote with the key omissions and planned parenthood picked it up.

Interesting.

OK, I'll assume you have it right. I have not examined how it played out to a sufficient degree.

 

[Red]

And I predict that the next president while be vilified even worse. Deservingly or not.

Not sure why you’re trying to attack trump to me. F him. Just a train wreck. He still fits the pattern.

I know you've clarified your thoughts further, but just to address the degree of vilification we may see:

Sorry to repeat a quote I already posted, but to make a point, I will. From the Washington Post article on page 4 of this thread:

"......one remarkable thing about Trump is that he never appeals to the better angels of our nature. He never asks Americans to be thoughtful, or generous, or kind, or empathetic, or considerate, or inclusive. Since Trump possesses none of those virtues, he can’t bring himself to demand them of others.

What he does instead is appeal to what is worst in people, like their fear and hatred and bigotry. This is the place where Trump truly has a touch of political genius: He can see into the dark depths of the American soul, find the ugliest things lying there, and wrench them up to the surface."

It really does not require one be a liberal, a registered Democrat one's entire life, or giving into inflexible tribal politics to recognize the severe character flaws denoted by the above observation. Conservative commentators were noting Trump's demagogic tendencies early on, during the campaign. Conservative George Will has been scathing in his criticism of this president.

What is bound to happen, I believe, is this. A percentage of Trump followers has bought into his conspiracy theories, his alternative reality, designed in part to demonize the Mueller probe, demonize the so-called Deep State, lock, stock, and barrel. I do not know what % of Trump voters they represent(after all, about 90% of Republicans support Trump, and they are not all denizens of our modern conspiracy culture), but from my perspective, that percentage is a cult of personality.

Now, if Trump is still in office in 2020, and loses to a Democrat, that subset of Trump supporters will unquestionably vilify his successor. Heck, he will likely be on the sidelines screaming "rigged election", "it's the Deep State", etc. That subset of Trump supporters will be unsparing. I put Dutchjazzer in that category, since you used his most recent thread to support your position, although Dutch is not a citizen. Then again, conspiracy culture and attraction to candidates that appeal only to hate, anger, fear, and anxiety is not uniquely American either.

So, there is bound to be some who will vilify a Democratic president. But, unless that president is a carbon copy of Trump, speaking only to our basest instincts, it cannot possibly be to the degree of vilification/disgust that we see directed toward this abberation of a president.

I think we might also keep in mind, that if Trump loses in 2020, the GOP is going to be dealing with intense self-examination, since they hitched their wagon to this train wreck. We may also see a severe right wing third Trumpian party develop. If Trump loses in 2020, he needs to lose hugely, and the elements within our society that have felt emboldened by his words and actions, driven very much to the sidelines.

 

[Stoked]

OK, I'll assume you have it right. I have not examined how it played out to a sufficient degree.

Me either to be honest. Both are plausible scenarios

As for the general discussion. I guess we will see. But I have very little hope that DC will suddenly return to respectable behavior. Trump of which is by far the most glaring example. Is this really the best we can do? Smh

 

[Zombie]

Stoked bringing that both sides are equally to blame **** as usual lol.

Yeah both sides play politics, but there's a world of difference between confirmation hearing theatrics and whatever the conspiracy dejour is on the right wing at any given point.

 

[Stoked]

Stoked bringing that both sides are equally to blame **** as usual lol.

Yeah both sides play politics, but there's a world of difference between confirmation hearing theatrics and whatever the conspiracy dejour is on the right wing at any given point.

The confirmation theatrics are one example of many. But fell free to act like ones really to blame and the others looking out for you.

I’ll just sit here and laugh openly at this. “Equal blame”. Lmfao. Keep missing the point entirely.

 

[Zombie]

The confirmation theatrics are one example of many. But fell free to act like ones really to blame and the others looking out for you.

I’ll just sit here and laugh openly at this. “Equal blame”. Lmfao. Keep missing the point entirely.

I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to say here. I don't think politicians on either side are perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but the state of the GOP right now is on a level I've never seen in my lifetime. It's a ****ing cancer on this country.

Anyway, I've been around here long enough to be familiar with your 'gee golly, I'm just an independant who points out how bad Democrats are in every thread critical of Republicans, because I'm just above it all' shtick. It's just not a very useful way to view American politics in a landscape where one side is enslaved in cultish devotion to a racist gibbering moron.

 

[Red]

The confirmation theatrics are one example of many. But fell free to act like ones really to blame and the others looking out for you.

I’ll just sit here and laugh openly at this. “Equal blame”. Lmfao. Keep missing the point entirely.

I think I must be missing the point as well. Are you saying someone who feels as I do, and I've never hidden the fact that I loath Trump, should not support the Democrats opposition to Trump? Or, perhaps more accurately, are you saying that I am somehow naive for doing so? If they are opposing Trump, supporting the Mueller probe, how are they not looking out for me, for my interests? And I understand candidates and elected officials of both parties get lots of corporate money, and campaign finance reform is much needed. And I don't like it, or what it's done to our body politic.

Understand, if someone more palatable were president, but promoted the policies Trump is promoting, I would still have no choice but to support the Democrats. In the case of Trump, my biggest concern is his climate change denial policies. This would not be the case if Clinton had been elected. I don't want to veer too far from the subject, so I will just post this as one example. Trump just appointed this guy to the National Security Council:

https://www.ecowatch.com/trump-climate-denier-happer-2602295674.html

Reaction to that will be dependent on how one feels about global warming. I understand that. But we only have two viable political parties. I realize politics has been called the art of compromise, and if so, our body politic is broken. But I cannot, at this time in our nation's history, regard both these parties as equal in the harm they inflict. I believe both Democratic senators from my state, and I am a big fan of Sen. Sheldon Whitehouse, particularly his position on climate science, are acting in my interest.

Just because people play politics, play to the camera, promote their personal political ambitions(hello Corey Booker), etc. does not mean I cannot support any and every effort to support the Democrats in the face of the Trump presidency. Republicans are the silence of the lambs in the face of Trump.

I don't have a viable third party to turn to at this moment. I feel like I am putting my country first. (I could be kidding myself I guess). If we have two political parties, one will act as the opposition when they are in the minority. That's the way things work. In that respect, they are equal. But that does not mean there is not a right side and a wrong side in any particular era, where the two parties are concerned. In this era, Republicans are not acting in the best interest of my country. Democrats are not perfect, they just happen to be right in opposing Trump.

 

[Harambe]

The confirmation theatrics are one example of many. But fell free to act like ones really to blame and the others looking out for you.

I’ll just sit here and laugh openly at this. “Equal blame”. Lmfao. Keep missing the point entirely.

Your story arc is pretty interesting. It entertains me how much more central you've become. And I respect that. You seem to be living a dichotomy "don't forget where you come from, don't die holding on to your words". And really man, that's great. From my perspective, you're in that swing from right to left while landing closer to central. No doubt, should the left put up someone as divisive, dishonest, insecure, and unstable as donnie, you'll swing harder right(Hillary gets 3/4, but 1 of those three is merely because she's not a man.. that we know of). And to be fair, if the left had that, I'd probably swing a lot closer to central, too.

Right now, I don't think we can say there's equal blame. Yeah, the ****** tactics the Democrats are using aren't incredibly helpful, and some of them downright hard to watch. But some of them are... we've discovered Kavanaugh doesn't walk the walk he describes. If he did, instead of asking "who signed this" after reading an illegally obtained document, he would have reported it immediately. He had a chance to redeem himself during his confirmation hearing in ... 05? 06? But he didn't, and he just kept on keeping on. This man does not have the character to sit on the bench for that reason alone; his position on abortion, equal rights, racism, separation of powers, presidential immunity, etc. don't even need to come into play. If after seeing what he DOES, instead of what he SAYS, doesn't make you want to impeach him from his current position, then you're part of the problem.

Yet, all Republicans are gung ho for him. Seemingly all of them. And largely, in practice, they're all for letting donnie run wild. If they were truly a responsible group looking out for the vast majority of people in their districts, they'd be pushing back a lot more than they are. And maybe behind the scenes, they are but I don't see it. That tactic is hurting them more than helping.

 

[Stoked]

At this point I think assigning blame is a useless excercise. I see no real value in determining who robbed me 1,000 times versus who robbed me 900 times. For example.

As for the Rs, to hell with them. I have no confidence in them to do the right thing. But I really have to faith in the Ds either. I’m not letting Trump make me lose sight of that.

Again, Trump is trash. This is not negating his trashness. It’s looking beyond Trump at a longer picture. He absolutely deserves ridicule. And I think he will end up impeached.

 

[LogGrad98]

The babe(ie; tinfoil) part of me still thinks Bannon's involved, and donnie axing him was fabricated.

What question did he ax him?

 

[Harambe]

What question did he ax him?

Wrong ax.. this was in context of "letting him go", firing him, informing him his services are no longer required.

But while we're on the subject, can I ax u bout mudkips?

 

[Stars Fan]

At this point I think assigning blame is a useless excercise. I see no real value in determining who robbed me 1,000 times versus who robbed me 900 times. For example.

As for the Rs, to hell with them. I have no confidence in them to do the right thing. But I really have to faith in the Ds either. I’m not letting Trump make me lose sight of that.

Again, Trump is trash. This is not negating his trashness. It’s looking beyond Trump at a longer picture. He absolutely deserves ridicule. And I think he will end up impeached.

I hear you. It is easy to lose faith in the system. However, doing so just leaves us open to more of the same Manipulation.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using JazzFanz mobile app

 

[LogGrad98]

At this point I think assigning blame is a useless excercise. I see no real value in determining who robbed me 1,000 times versus who robbed me 900 times. For example.

As for the Rs, to hell with them. I have no confidence in them to do the right thing. But I really have to faith in the Ds either. I’m not letting Trump make me lose sight of that.

Again, Trump is trash. This is not negating his trashness. It’s looking beyond Trump at a longer picture. He absolutely deserves ridicule. And I think he will end up impeached.

See the problem is you are trying to float reason in an acid ocean of unreason. It cannot survive. Don't you know that the only possible way to exist is in a full-on dichotomy? You are either for us (pick a side), or against us. Period. You cannot have it both ways, there is no middle. If I detect the slightest variance from my version of the truth, you are automatically a dissident and rabid believe in the "other" side, and need to be exterminated. Get out of here with your reason and logic and imaginary moderateness. That is no longer allowed!

You are either a card-carrying, dyed-in-the-wool "savior of all mankind" adherent of the democrat religion, or you are a Trump-lover that wants nothing more than to pleasure Trump and his family in any way they desire. You cannot be against Trump and disagree with even any iota of the democrat agenda. That is just, I mean...what...does not compute....gaahhhh....brain....explod......uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

 

[LogGrad98]

This is not about their agenda. If Trump goes Pence becomes President. Agenda is largely the same. I think the Republican establishment is terrified of the backlash that would come from Trump's base if they were complicit in his ouster.

Agreed. Still given that as an option, I would opt for Pence. Of course, that is the devil we do not know, and it might be worse. My bet is it would at least be marginally better.

 

[Gameface]

Agreed. Still given that as an option, I would opt for Pence. Of course, that is the devil we do not know, and it might be worse. My bet is it would at least be marginally better.

I'd bet that Pence at least knows how to operate an administration.

 

[JazzGal]

Pence would likely be more skilled at getting things done that I do not want to see get done. At least Trump's bumbling prevents some of the things I fear. But his bumbling also hides of a lot of things that are getting done (like the climate regulation rollbacks) that might actually concern more people if they were more widely reported.

 

[JazzGal]

I was thinking earlier today about the claims that aides remove things from Trump's reach and hopes he forgets about them, how they try to reign in his worst impulses. For a brief moment, I thought it might be useful for his worst impulses to be let loose so even his base could see how incompetent he is. But I realized that too many people would likely die. So much for that idea.

 

[Joe Bagadonuts]

Ugh, with the way things are trending worse and worse how long into the next presidents term before someone accuses him of eating a baby, being a serial rapist or one of the 4 horsemen or some ****.

That's a legit concern. Some people hate the current president so much that they think embellishing every accusation is justified. They are truly deranged and can't see that their insanity is fueling the fire. It's going to take a miracle to save us. Fortunately, I believe in miracles.

I’m not acting like it’s just because at all. I’ve openly derided him.

I am saying that now that the presidence of this level of opposition has been set by him being garbage that it only gets worse from here.

If the Ds lose they will froth at the mouth over the party that supported Donald...

If the Rs lose they will use the way Trump was treated as justification.

Trump actually deserving constant ridicule has only accelerated this cycle imo.

Only questions I have are when is enough truly enough? When do people refuse to go along anymore? Then what?

I'm in complete agreement. As a conservative I realize that my take on how we got here is completely different from what most liberals believe is going on. I wish that sanity could prevail and that people could talk to one another in an honest effort to understand why we are where we are, and then to find a way to middle ground. Reacting with extremism is not working.

 

[babe]

Lol what a bunch of nonsense. I don't need Woodward or anyone to tell me that Trump is unbalanced and should be removed from office. Nixon lied through his teeth and used his position to cover it up. The right always makes up excuses when facts come out about their guys by claiming the Democrats are more corrupt without any proof. Conspiracy theories are not facts. Either the right is too dumb to catch the Democrats or there isn't anything there. Obama's weaponizing federal agencies.. what does that even mean? Sounds like you are one of the people who believed Obama was going to send federal troops to Texas which turned out to be right-winged conspiracy nonsense.

When I go out into my fields and preach Jesus to my cows, they are at least polite about it. Dunno….. chewing on your cud and looking thoughtful can be really charming.


I realize we have some Jazz fans here who do listen to CNN and have great faith in a slice of our popular culture. My fav radio gal Sonnie Johnson has been predicting a socialist/democrat tide rising for some time, particularly in our young and impressionable folks and college indoctrinaires.

Paint a pretty picture and imagine..... listen to a song and imagine..... smoke some weed and imagine. Things will be great with a whole new world.

But really, cowhide, please research your ideas a bit.

The charge of Obama "weaponizing" federal agencies means purposefully loading the agencies with like-minded folks.... he's a pretty good "community organizer", some say. Some say Bush did the same thing, though not so effectively. This is equivalent to "Loading" a weapon.... a gun, a cannon, a missile.... a plane with bombs.... something like that.

Then, after checking our the reliability of the people you've put in place, you find some channel of passing instructions..... say to the IRS: audit the wacko right wingnuts and R candidates.... check out their compliance exhaustively and sorta edge them outta the race...… This is exactly what happened a few years ago. And nobody cared to call it criminal.

It helps when you can get your FBI to plant some mics in the congressional offices or get their email and follow all their efforts in their office...… Also.... It is what happened under Obama.

And if you have some nuisance journalists saying stuff that doesn't help, well.... the FBI can do something about that too. Spy on the press and then lean on offending reporters a bit. It really helps cut down the noise. This also was done by Obama and his pitt bull federal agents...… And yes, all of these are criminal offenses violating US law, and whaddya know, with Hillary posed to swoop in and make it all ordinary business wouldn't you believe it.... a whole lot of folks just started taking that as the new normal.

So, really, it was nothing special to do similar crimes in getting Trump's campaign spied on.

I think Trump has been pretty clear messaging to the Press that he's not just stupid. But he has done nothing illegal or criminal or that amounted to "weaponizing" the federal agencies.

I believe he decided not to prosecute his enemies because he realized how and why it just wouldn't work. He actually doesn't care what his opponents do or say except just to say the plain fact that his opposition isn't reasonable or right in what they're doing.

Look, I don't see anyone in this site who is going to listen to me, so I should just go out and preach to my damn cows.

 

[Red]

It's very easy for me to loath Trump. From the day he announced, and then denounced Mexicans, I thought I recognized a demagogue. Almost nothing he has said or done has eased my concerns. But my father taught me early on to always remember, when judging others, that "there but for the grace of God goes I". So, loathing his character issues, and the quote I left earlier regarding the fact that he never appeals to the better angels in his fellow citizens, but only the baser instincts, summarizes those issues succinctly, is not enough to translate loathing what he represents into outright hatred of the man as a human being.

Further, am I to assume, that if I find Woodward and his book's interpretation to be an accurate portrait of concern among his subordinates, that I am therefore "deranged", or afflicted with "insanity"? Why is a deep concern for the democratic institutions of my country a form of hatred and insanity? Why is it not instead the concern of someone who is familiar with his nation's' history, on the one hand, and worry and concern of what happens when a demagogue assumes power in a nation on the other hand?

And what exactly is a middle ground where Trump is concerned?

If we look back at our history, we can find some corrupt administrations. History judges them to be so. Yet, at the time, there were no doubt members of the party in question who supported a corrupt administration simply because it was controlled by their party. And there would have been citizens who supported that administration, for any number of reasons. It represented their party, they did not believe the corruption allegations, they supported its policies otherwise, etc. Others would have seen right through the charade and opposed said president, or even opposed them simply for tribal reasons.

So now, at this time in America's history, I don't know how I approach Trump other then loathing the character defects that has led to no effort on his part to inspire our higher angels, as well as opposition to his treatment of minorities, his treatment of "others", of scapegoats that every demagogue uses to channel fear and anger. I don't know how I find a middle ground that does not involve hoping for this man's removal from office. And I don't find it insane to see Woodward's book as a baseline to understanding the interior workings of his administration. I believe Woodward, I do not believe Trump. That does not make me insane.

Rather then hate the man outright, or froth with insanity, I can very easily see him as a tragic figure. He seems extraordinarily insecure. He seems narcissistic to a dangerous degree. But he is a human being. I can see all this as the story of a tragic figure. It goes right back to that core lesson my father taught me when judging others. That does not mean I can just look the other way. But it does mean that seeing him as a tragic human makes it difficult to hate him, much easier to pity him. And it does not mean then I am insane for being concerned with the fate of our democratic institutions. His inclination is to make the Dept of Justice beholden to him, not the protection of our constitution. That makes him dangerous in my estimation.

But, that's how I approach this moment in our history. I can't speak for anyone other then myself. I do know that the concerns I have felt from the start, seemingly confirmed by Trump's words, actions, and the portrait emerging from Woodward's book were not predicated by first deciding I hated Trump, and then I went out to find reasons to justify my hatred. We've had bad administrations in our history. This is another such administration, from what I can see. Labeling people opposed to Trump as "deranged" seems like an impossible path to a hypothetical middle ground.