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Lockout!!!

This all sounds like a bunch of "if so and so is elected president, I'm moving to Canada" if I've ever heard it.

I believe in parity as much or more than anyone, but gouging player salaries isn't the only way to get it done.
If by "gouging" you mean "cutting", I vehemently disagree. Curbing these out-of-control player salaries, unrestrained by injury or lack of effort or any other variable, is the most logical way to bring profitability into line, because it is the expense that is most out of line.

Numberica said:
I've said many times things need to change and that the players should and are going to be on the losing side, no doubt. But I think it's absurd that BRI should be something that changes, and if it does, that it would change in favor of the owners. Players deserve every cent of that cut since they are who we watch.
Joe Johnson doesn't deserve $20 million per year. Sorry.

An injured Grant Hill, Yao Ming, etc. doesn't deserve an eight-figure salary year after year while on injured reserve. Sorry. I don't "pay to see" this most lavish form of disability payment in human existence.

Taking your argument to its logical end, since they deserve every cent, why not raise the player cut to 60%? 70%, anyone? You know, because they "deserve" it. And because they definitely do everything they can to deserve it in every minute of every game /sarcasm.

They are who makes it the best basketball on earth. They are the Jazz, and every other team. I don't give A **** about college ball because it's so much worse. Cut or significantly marginalize guaranteed deals, put in a flex cap, put in something like a franchise tag. Do the things necessary to allow teams to fix the situation they've gotten themselves into and cultivate parity. But the players deserve most of the share here, especially since they have such a small window to earn their money and no owner is putting his body on the line for owning the team either.
LOL at small window. Given that even minimum-salary players earn as much in 2-4 years as what most other people earn in a lifetime, I'd say your mention of a "small window" is pretty much bunk. The average player salary for one year is several times more what Joe Fan makes in a lifetime.

I agree with you that marginalizing guaranteed deals would be helpful. I don't see where a franchise tag would, and it doesn't make sense unless you have 2 or 3 franchise tags, because that's what it takes to contend for a title.

And true; the owners aren't putting their "body on the line", but they are putting their investment on the line, and it is perfectly understandable for them to seek a good return on their investment, which at least 22 of 30 teams did not realize recently.

Numberica said:
The problem isn't that players make 57%. It's that owners have been irresponsible with the remaining 43% and have no way to get out from under their own mistakes.
If the butts stayed in the seats at the 43% owner share, then maybe revenue would improve, but even if the 22 losing teams were more profitable, it's not unreasonable to cut back the players' share, given that 57% is near the top among major sports in terms of players' share.

"Irresponsible with the remaining 43%?" Are they paying the ticket takers too much? Should they go with more economical halftime entertainment? <<rolleyes>>. IMHO, their greatest sin of irresponsibility was agreeing to giving up 57% to the players in the first place.

Separate but parallel example: Giving Andrei Kirilenko 7 years guaranteed, peaking at $17M+.
 
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Here's a classic assessment of the lockout and how it could be solved! I especially thought this paragraph was very incite full!

"Issue No. 5: Nobody is putting a gun to the owners' heads and telling them to overpay players.

This is the no. 1 argument from every agent and Players Association head, none of whom seem to care that they sound like the parent of an obese child saying, "It's not my fault the boy is fat, I'm not forcing him to eat." Let's skip this one because the lack of accountability is disgusting.

What Dave would tell the owners: "We can't win here. If you made a conscious commitment to collectively rein in spending, that would be collusion. When you're left to your own devices, more times than not, you'll screw up. My only idea: Maybe any NBA franchise that allows an ex-player, a coach, a former scout, or basically anyone without genuine business and/or legal training to negotiate with some of the smartest legal/business minds in the entire world should be fined $10 million by the commissioner's office. Do you realize that agents laugh about this behind closed doors? They can't believe they were allowed to negotiate deals with the likes of Mike Dunleavy, Joe Dumars, Kevin McHale, David Kahn, Isiah Thomas, Danny Ferry and the Paxson brothers over the years. It makes them giggle and giggle. Maybe we DO deserve to lose $340 million every year."

https://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/6749669/if-ruled-nba-world
 
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Is everyone taking crazy pills? I'm proposing axing guaranteed deals. Am I doing that bad a job or is everyone retarded? That and revenue sharing literally fixes everything, AT LEAST from a financial angle.
 
Is everyone taking crazy pills? I'm proposing axing guaranteed deals. Am I doing that bad a job or is everyone retarded? That and revenue sharing literally fixes everything, AT LEAST from a financial angle.
Don't be so hard on yourself.

At current profitability of less than $200 million in aggregate divided by 30ish teams worth $300 million or so (I'm being super-conservative here; the argument is even better if I'm not), then the return on investment is only $200 / ($300 *30) = about 2% per year. That's not a good ROI, and the #1 cause of poor ROI is the 57% player take--among the highest in professional sports.

Axing guaranteed deals might help the quality of the games, which will help the top line somewhat. And I agree that teams shouldn't have to pay Grant Hill eight figures for recuperation. But it is unlikely to help the cost side (because this player would likely be replaced) and thus provides only modest help to the bottom line.

Based on $3.5 to $4 billion in total revenue, then each 1% drop in players' share (now at 57%) would provide just over $1 million in pretax profit to each team (if it's split evenly).

If--by "revenue sharing" you are suggesting that the top 6 or so profitable teams share more of their take with the other 24ish, then I can understand the Lakers and other elite teams not wanting to give up more of the pie. The brand value of a Laker team is what makes it attractive, and the splitting up of the aggregate media pie should take care of the rest of the team. Also, they probably could call the luxury tax part of this redistribution.

That being said, if there was a 75/25 home-away split of gate receipts, it would probably help out the weakest teams somewhere between $5 million and $10 million per year (but most teams far less). A team like the Lakers, who averages north of $80 million in gate receipts, would have to give up about $3 million, give or take a couple of million.

It appears that a modest revenue sharing plan is already in place--to the tune of $50 million total.
https://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com...A-Increases-Shared-Revenue-By-63-Percent.aspx

The most profitable teams might not want to give up much more than that.

Taking the rumored 54% player share offer boosts profitability by about $3 billion pretax per team. Notch up the revenue sharing, and you give teams another few million of safety net.
 
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Is everyone taking crazy pills? I'm proposing axing guaranteed deals. Am I doing that bad a job or is everyone retarded? That and revenue sharing literally fixes everything, AT LEAST from a financial angle.

I don't disagree with the axing guaranteed contracts. However it does not solve the financial angle if the owner's are still paying the same amount to the players overall.
 
Margo's take:

The majority of owners have time and money, which are things that the majority of players do not. Advantage owners.

Also, Bill Simmons latest article I thought was really interesting and with a few tweaks I think he's really on to something. I wish Stern would think a little bit more outside the box like Bill suggested.
 
Looks like someone is willing to look outside the box as Bill Simmons suggests, but its not Stern:

"If the proposal (the owners) have, if that's what they're sticking with and that's what they want, then I think it would be hard for a lot of guys to come back to the NBA," Williams said Friday in an interview at a private golf resort in San Diego.

"(Kobe) could go make more money overseas, I guarantee you." said Williams, who has a one-year, $5 million deal with Besiktas. "If (European teams) knew he could be there for a full season, or they knew I could be there for a full season, or they knew LeBron James could be there for a full season, they'll pay more money, of course."

https://sports.espn.go.com/new-york/nba/news/story?id=6753259

For anyone who is still naive, read the whole article and see how Deron talks about NBAPU, the owners, Kobe, China, his millions and his investments but never mentions the fans, or the kids.
 
I don't disagree with the axing guaranteed contracts. However it does not solve the financial angle if the owner's are still paying the same amount to the players overall.

But they won't. Players (as individuals) should still have the opportunity to earn what they can now. 57% is the minimum the players CAN receive (https://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#Q8), but if teams are actually losing a 1/3 of a billion dollars annually (they aren't), then there's no way it's just 57%. If we the people can ever get credible financial statements (I wouldn't count on it), I bet we'd see that players are making upwards of 60%. That is because of guaranteed contracts and annual, guaranteed raises. Cutting out the contract year phenoms and washed up hacks saves a lot of money for a lot of teams. And I'm sure having better play would also increase revenue.

Again, from a financial angle, cutting guaranteed deals (or making them much more rare, say, in a franchise tag role [to be used after a player is set to complete their second [team option-driven] contract and become a UFA) and revenue sharing (50/50?) would go a really long way. Getting the NBAPA to agree to the guaranteed contract angle would be difficult, but not anymore difficult than trying to slash 35% of their salaries (committed or not) across the board, and putting in a $45 million hard cap. That's just insane.
 
gregbroncs said:
I don't disagree with the axing guaranteed contracts. However it does not solve the financial angle if the owner's are still paying the same amount to the players overall.
But they won't. Players (as individuals) should still have the opportunity to earn what they can now. 57% is the minimum the players CAN receive (https://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#Q8), but if teams are actually losing a 1/3 of a billion dollars annually (they aren't), then there's no way it's just 57%.
Not sure I follow. My understanding is that whatever percentage of player share that is in place (57% or otherwise) is the minimum of what the players get no matter what, whether there are contract guarantees or not.

Also, it seems that you're being an apologist for the players. Not sure why. 57% is above the player take among all major sports. While it is true that the owners were the ones that negotiated and allowed such a lavish share for the players, that doesn't mean it should continue. Congratulations to those players who benefitted from being overpaid (more than usual) during the previous CBA. Now the economy is worse (and isn't getting notably better anytime soon), many owners aren't making money (and that's true no matter what version of financial statements you use). Your mention of the estimated 60% true player take further bolsters the notion that the solution ought to include a cut in the player take by several percentage points.

As I have described before, revenue sharing--in the unlikely event that the profitable teams would even agree to it--would likely subsidize the unprofitable teams to the tune of $5 million, give or take a few million. While I agree with you and Bill Simmons that it makes sense that the NBA should have it just like the NFL does, it's shouldn't have to be the primary change, given that the player share (57%) is excessive relative to the NFL, MLB, etc. Also, the revenue sharing alone might give some cushion to marginally profitable teams with relatively solid fan bases like the Jazz but might not be enough for marginal teams such as SAC, CHA, etc. By contrast, cutting the player share is something that likely benefits all owners.

Numberica said:
If we the people can ever get credible financial statements (I wouldn't count on it), I bet we'd see that players are making upwards of 60%. That is because of guaranteed contracts and annual, guaranteed raises. Cutting out the contract year phenoms and washed up hacks saves a lot of money for a lot of teams. And I'm sure having better play would also increase revenue.

Again, from a financial angle, cutting guaranteed deals (or making them much more rare, say, in a franchise tag role [to be used after a player is set to complete their second [team option-driven] contract and become a UFA) and revenue sharing (50/50?) would go a really long way. Getting the NBAPA to agree to the guaranteed contract angle would be difficult, but not anymore difficult than trying to slash 35% of their salaries (committed or not) across the board, and putting in a $45 million hard cap. That's just insane.
Not sure where you're getting the "slash 35%" number; the most aggressive cut that I have seen bandied about is to 50% player share. If there was a hard cap of $45 million as in your example, then it would likely not pay up to the player share percentage, and so the players would get the surplus above their salaries to meet the player share anyway, making the effective salary difficult to estimate in advance and making the hard cap as a less-than-useful tool. ($45 million hard cap * 30ish teams = less than $1.5 billion, notably less than the $2 billion plus that has been the player take recently.)

More effective is for the NBA to estimate the cap every year like they are currently doing, but maybe make it a harder cap (if not a completely hard cap) than it currently is.

Balanced, effective solution: Increase the revenue sharing (maybe increasing it by 10 or 20 or 30 million is possible and/or somehow giving a bigger cut of the playoff revenue across the teams), cut the player share to low 50's (not necessarily 50/50), tighten the cap restrictions, and play ball. If owners can get some concession on not having to pay the full contract of injured players (or even those who are dogging it), great.

As for the financial statements, no matter whether you use the NBA official version or if you back out amortization, etc., many teams have still been losing substantial money. I would support what Bill Simmons said to loosen up the policy around salvaging bottom-feeder teams such as the Hornets. If they can't be profitable with a little bit more revenue sharing and the new CBA, let them move to Anaheim, or let them fold.
 
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https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/214658/Arenas_Hard_Cap_Would_Not_Benefit_Small_Market_Teams

One of Gilbert's more intelligible thoughts. A hard cap would not sway any superstar to sign with a small market team. They would simply take less and go to the big cities for lifestyle and endorsements. The tiered system would still be in place, meaning the Jazz would be left paying the max to borderline stars like Carlos Boozer. Sort of goes against Stern's whole premise of creating a league "with any team having an equal chance to win a title."
 
Let's say last year you can just cut Arenas, Lewis, AK, Brand, K-Mart, Baron Davis, Eddy Curry, Peja, Troy Murphy, Redd, Yao, and Rip. That's hovering around $180 million in savings, just right there.

Getting rid of just those guaranteed deals - as a league - could've amounted to 8% of total earnings paid out last year if my mental math/figures I'm working with ($2 billion in payouts) is correct. That's not including the whole other pile of people earning $ they have no business earning, which probably account for another 2%.
 
That's not including the whole other pile of people earning $ they have no business earning...

Going through the list of players, I very crudely added up another $155 million that could've been saved through cuts.

Of course, some of this money comes back in the form of free agent signings, but nothing like what's being saved.

By adding the two figures together ($180 million and $155 million) you're getting really close to the phantom and likely insanely exaggerated $340 million loss.
 
Let's say last year you can just cut Arenas, Lewis, AK, Brand, K-Mart, Baron Davis, Eddy Curry, Peja, Troy Murphy, Redd, Yao, and Rip. That's hovering around $180 million in savings, just right there.

Getting rid of just those guaranteed deals - as a league - could've amounted to 8% of total earnings paid out last year if my mental math/figures I'm working with ($2 billion in payouts) is correct. That's not including the whole other pile of people earning $ they have no business earning, which probably account for another 2%.
That's lovely analysis. Now all you have to do is get the Players' Association to agree (not happening).

It would be nice, at minimum, if maybe the NBAPA agreed to paying an injured player a portion of their remaining contract in order to cut them. That portion might still be 50% or 80%. I'd be interested to know how the NFL managed to work that.

Shorter contract length (guaranteed 4 years maximum now?) seems to be more feasible--doesn't resolve an the cost of an injury (or laziness) that happens before year 4, but it's better than having to keep subeffective players for more than that. Maybe players could be allowed to sign for longer if it's a team option on years 5 or more.
 
That's lovely analysis. Now all you have to do is get the Players' Association to agree (not happening).

That's a hard sell, I agree, but I've seen this $45 million hard cap number and a 35% reduction in guaranteed league salary floating around, and this is both much more profitable for the players, and a much more equitable system/easier to sell.

Either way, there will have to be some sort of amnesty clause for existing guaranteed deals where you can buy-out the remainder of the deal for most of it's worth and it won't count against the cap or something like that. There will have to be SOME digging out of the mess that owners have gotten themselves into regardless of the deal stricken.
 
That's a hard sell, I agree, but I've seen this $45 million hard cap number and a 35% reduction in guaranteed league salary floating around, and this is both much more profitable for the players, and a much more equitable system/easier to sell.

Either way, there will have to be some sort of amnesty clause for existing guaranteed deals where you can buy-out the remainder of the deal for most of it's worth and it won't count against the cap or something like that. There will have to be SOME digging out of the mess that owners have gotten themselves into regardless of the deal stricken.
Sho 'nuff; here is the $45 million hard cap proposal--from nearly two months ago:
https://aol.sportingnews.com/nba/story/2011-05-16/sbj-nba-proposes-45-million-hard-salary-cap

Looks like they might have gotten past it, though, sort of, at least according to this guy:
https://www.chicagonow.com/chicago-.../nba-proposal---a-hard-cap-by-any-other-name/

Such draconian measures would seem to have to be phased in, given the exorbitant contracts still on the books (unless they've become null and void, which I don't think they have). I don't know if they've ever discussed reducing the cap by a few million per year (or the player share by a percentage point or two per year) until it reaches a target level. Without a phase-in, teams like Miami might be over the cap with their top three players alone.

It's not clear to me that a franchise tag would hurt small-markets, as some articles suggest.

What it hurts is the #2 or #3 guy necessary to make a team viable but who wouldn't be tagged and thus would get a substantially smaller salary despite not necessarily being substantially inferior in talent. If the NBPA perceives this disparity, I don't see them buying into the tag. Basketball is probably less like the NFL where the quarterback is usually far and away the most important player on the team. Many NBA teams have 2 or 3 top-tier, nearly-All-Star players.

So my amended solution is this: a phased-in drop in players' share (maybe dropping 1% per year, starting with 56% next year, down to 52%, resulting in a 53% average for 10 years) plus revenue sharing (that also possibly starts with a high value for the visiting team, maybe up to 40%, then dropping 5% per year down to 25% or 20%).

The players would likely go for the player share part, but I don't see the Lakers giving up 40% of their precious gate receipts in exchange for the paltry revenue produced from the small-market teams. Yet it would save the season, make all teams financially viable, and give both sides (including the existing contracts) a few years to fully adjust to the new, more epicurean economy.

If the revenue sharing thing is a no-go, then I still think that lowering the player share might be enough. With each drop in revenue share, the cutoff for the luxury tax cutoff, also, thus redistributing more revenue from those over the cap to those under it. I don't see how they can get a hard cap to work.
 
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Ax guarantee salaries. Teams might still load up like the Heat. But when guys like Deron, Howard, Paul, and later on Wall, Griffin and others become free agents, teams who've been smart with their money and have axed contract cancers like Kirilenko can sign a superstar. In recent times, it seems there are usually so few teams that have cap room to sign a stud (barring the Lebron sweepstakes year) that the player just re-ups with their own team. Perhaps I'm wrong here but that's what it seems. Having the ability to cut the Rashard Lewis' of the world though would create more fluidity in the free agent market and with trades. Perhaps I'm way off here but it's what my gut instinct tells me.

That said, teams should not just be able to purge any time they want. There should be a limit to how often a team can ax a player. Orlando should not have been able to (hypothetically) ax Lewis, and then ax Arenas four weeks later once they realized they compounded their problem by taking on a worse contract. Maybe I'm wrong here and there shouldn't be a limit to how often a team can ax a player but I think if every team is given the chance to do so, then there will be an even greater disparity between the large and small markets. Imagine if Orlando had had the chance to cut Lewis 12 months ago. Perhaps cut another player or two too. Just gut the team. Free agents would have been lined up to sign there. Why? Because it's Orlando and they have Dwight Howard.

To me, having a limitless ability to cut players and purge the team of awful salaries will make the rich richer. Not monetarily speaking but competitively. New York, Miami, L.A., maybe even L.A. 2.0, Chicago, Orlando, Boston. These teams would literally always have studs because they're big markets with big exposure and big nightlifes. They'd sign the studs. They'd cut those "studs" who didn't work out one or two years after their signing and then sign some other stud. Vets would flock there ala Bibby to Miami to go for a ring. It would be disgusting.

I don't know. It's almost 1am here. Maybe I'm wrong. It's just what I foresee happening. But I'm with virtually everyone in that I hate guaranteed contracts so I don't know what to do.
 
Ax guarantee salaries. Teams might still load up like the Heat. But when guys like Deron, Howard, Paul, and later on Wall, Griffin and others become free agents, teams who've been smart with their money and have axed contract cancers like Kirilenko can sign a superstar. In recent times, it seems there are usually so few teams that have cap room to sign a stud (barring the Lebron sweepstakes year) that the player just re-ups with their own team. Perhaps I'm wrong here but that's what it seems. Having the ability to cut the Rashard Lewis' of the world though would create more fluidity in the free agent market and with trades. Perhaps I'm way off here but it's what my gut instinct tells me.

That said, teams should not just be able to purge any time they want. There should be a limit to how often a team can ax a player. Orlando should not have been able to (hypothetically) ax Lewis, and then ax Arenas four weeks later once they realized they compounded their problem by taking on a worse contract. Maybe I'm wrong here and there shouldn't be a limit to how often a team can ax a player but I think if every team is given the chance to do so, then there will be an even greater disparity between the large and small markets. Imagine if Orlando had had the chance to cut Lewis 12 months ago. Perhaps cut another player or two too. Just gut the team. Free agents would have been lined up to sign there. Why? Because it's Orlando and they have Dwight Howard.

To me, having a limitless ability to cut players and purge the team of awful salaries will make the rich richer. Not monetarily speaking but competitively. New York, Miami, L.A., maybe even L.A. 2.0, Chicago, Orlando, Boston. These teams would literally always have studs because they're big markets with big exposure and big nightlifes. They'd sign the studs. They'd cut those "studs" who didn't work out one or two years after their signing and then sign some other stud. Vets would flock there ala Bibby to Miami to go for a ring. It would be disgusting.

I don't know. It's almost 1am here. Maybe I'm wrong. It's just what I foresee happening. But I'm with virtually everyone in that I hate guaranteed contracts so I don't know what to do.
Unfortunately there are about 330 people who love guaranteed contracts--the NBA players. They won't go for it. I'd be surprised if they went for it even for injured players or even on a limited basis (one cut per year, perhaps?). The best improvement that owners have is to cut guaranteed contract length to four years. That'll make a modest difference.
 
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