Our Long Term Problem is Our Stars are Limited

[Handlogten's Heros]

Look I love DM and Rudy... and there are very few stars that aren't a little limited so this is probably kind of unfair... I mean hell even Giannis struggles at times because his shot isn't good enough.

BUT I think the reason we likely don't become a true contender is our stars are limited. If you stars are limited then you can't force the best teams to bend to your will.

Rudy - Can't shoot or dribble and can have his amazing defense at the rim negated by shooting bigs which are more and more common. If you can't punish teams on the offensive glass or at the rim then you are kinda screwed.

DM - is small... can be planned around by playing him as a PG or as a SG with a tall PG. Hasn't become a good enough passer yet... defense comes and goes, but he could be a solid two-way player. Has some limitations as a scorer... doesn't get to the line enough and is a two foot jumper. It's all stuff you can work with though.

So we will beat bad and average teams most nights, but will struggle at the highest levels. Not sure how we fix it but the focus should be in finding guys that can shoot and hold their own on defense... having a 5 out option would help, but still wouldn't be enough to compete at the highest level.

 

[Elizah Huge]

It’s super unfair to say Mitchell doesn’t get the line enough because he doesn’t get a lot of the calls he should. He’s routinely fouled and doesn’t get the calls.

Gobert is much more limited and I truly don’t even think Mitchell is limited that much. It’s all stuff he can work on. He’s improved every year and will continue to. I think Gobert is what he is at this point.

 

[Miggs]

^
Jesus, seriously? Don’t be that ****ing guy. Please don’t. Mitchell doesn’t get to the line enough because he sucks at driving to the rim and is the only moron in the league who can’t jump off of one foot.

 

[Beer]

^
Jesus, seriously? Don’t be that ****ing guy. Please don’t. Mitchell doesn’t get to the line enough because he sucks at driving to the rim and is the only moron in the league who can’t jump off of one foot.

The fact he can't dribble and avoids contact in the lane like the plague is far more relevant to him not getting to the line.

 

[Jingled]

I've been thinking about this for a long time and have been meaning to make a thread about it. We can bitch about Conley, Bogey, Ingles, O'Neale, Niang and Bradley all we want, and they've definitely all had their fair share of ups and downs and deserve some criticism, but honestly, a team can only go as far as it's stars take it. Right now our stars just aren't as good as the stars on most of the top NBA teams and they may never be. I'm beginning to think it might not matter who we put around them, the ceiling of Rudy and Donovan might be a 4 or 5 seed and the second round of the playoffs. It kind of reminds me of the D-Will/Boozer teams, as good as those two guy's were, they were never quite good enough to make us true title contenders.

 

[Ferguson_Mellochill]

Mitchell is fine. He's a star player. However, dynamic guards have never been able to carry a team singlehandedly to a championship. There are a bunch of examples, including Allen Iverson, Derrick Rose, Damian Lillard, Kyrie Irving, Russell Westbrook, Kemba Walker, Chris Paul, Bradley Beal, etc. etc. Add James Harden to that list as well.

Mitchell is more or less on par with most of these players. He is a piece of the puzzle, but every championship team has to have a dynamic scorer and two-way player at the wing. This is what the Jazz are lacking. I like Royce O'Neale and Joe Ingles as much as the next guy, but the Jazz have to bring in another truly dynamic, triple-threat wing and push those guys deeper in the rotation if they want to get past the 2nd round.

The NBA game is just made for 6'7" or 6'8" athletic forwards who can do everything pretty well and score at high efficiency. Lebron aside, guys like Kawhi, Paul George, Pascal Siakam--guys who can defend, rebound, drive all the way to the rim with ease--are more or less essential to teams that want to contend. Even Gordon Hayward, who has a pretty loose dribble and pretty basic moves, impacts the game because he's a 6'8" athletic forward who can do everything a bit above average.

The Jazz need to bring in an athletic, 2-way, triple-threat 6'7" or 6'8" wing in order to take the next step. That guy probably needs to be at least as good as prime Andre Iguodala or Jimmy Butler. He's got to be able to create off the dribble, score with efficiency at the rim, knock down open 3s and defend at a high level. If Mitchell had a guy like that to play next to, he could focus on playing as a dynamic guard and not have to do more than he's capable of.

The Jazz are still one player away and they know it. Unfortunately, Mike Conley isn't that player. He's basically Dennis Schroeder with twice the contract. A lineup of Mitchell/Royce/Jimmy Butler/Bogdanovic/Gobert starts to become a legitimate contender. Given Gobert's offensive limitations, the Jazz need one more guy.

 

[Ferguson_Mellochill]

So yeah, our problem is that we only have 2 stars, and we need a 3rd to start contending.

Keep in mind Russell Westbrook/Paul George couldn't get past the 1st round.
Chris Paul/Blake Griffin couldn't get past the 2nd round.
Dame Lillard/CJ McCollum are probably going to miss the playoffs this year.

The league is that tough right now.

 

[Ferguson_Mellochill]

I've been thinking about this for a long time and have been meaning to make a thread about it. We can bitch about Conley, Bogey, Ingles, O'Neale, Niang and Bradley all we want, and they've definitely all had their fair share of ups and downs and deserve some criticism, but honestly, a team can only go as far as it's stars take it. Right now our stars just aren't as good as the stars on most of the top NBA teams and they may never be. I'm beginning to think it might not matter who we put around them, the ceiling of Rudy and Donovan might be a 4 or 5 seed and the second round of the playoffs. It kind of reminds me of the D-Will/Boozer teams, as good as those two guy's were, they were never quite good enough to make us true title contenders.

Right, but a core of Mitchell, Rudy and prime Tracy McGrady would probably contend. We've just got to add another star to Mitchell and Gobert, just like Toronto needed to team up Kawhi with Kyle Lowry and Marc Gasol. That's how difficult it is to contend.

 

[Jingled]

Right, but a core of Mitchell, Rudy and prime Tracy McGrady would probably contend. We've just got to add another star to Mitchell and Gobert, just like Toronto needed to add Kawhi to Lowry and Marc Gasol. That's how difficult it is to contend.

That's true but how do we add another star with the assets we have? We took our shot with Conley and now we're pretty much screwed. Toronto got a top 3 player in Kawhi, that's not possible for the Jazz.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

It’s super unfair to say Mitchell doesn’t get the line enough because he doesn’t get a lot of the calls he should. He’s routinely fouled and doesn’t get the calls.

Gobert is much more limited and I truly don’t even think Mitchell is limited that much. It’s all stuff he can work on. He’s improved every year and will continue to. I think Gobert is what he is at this point.

I don't think he avoids contact like a couple others said. I think the way he's built he absorbs the contact and they don't call it. He certainly doesn't look to do the BS jump into guys stuff or flopping garbage... and unfortunately it will limit how many calls he gets. He plays the right way and is punished for it. He is strong and it works against him... I've always though Lebron got way less calls than he should because he goes through the contact with strength rather than acting like he got shot.

 

[Beer]

I don't think he avoids contact like a couple others said. I think the way he's built he absorbs the contact and they don't call it. He certainly doesn't look to do the BS jump into guys stuff or flopping garbage... and unfortunately it will limit how many calls he gets. He plays the right way and is punished for it. He is strong and it works against him... I've always though Lebron got way less calls than he should because he goes through the contact with strength rather than acting like he got shot.

No, he jumps away from the defender. Which I get, he has to so he can actually get the shot off, but that style of play is not going to get you many foul calls. Where he does get fouled is when he initiates the drive, out at the 3 point line, and yes he is strong enough to power through those reaches, but when he gets into the paint hes going to opposite direction of the defender.

 

[Jazzmix]

Look I love DM and Rudy... and there are very few stars that aren't a little limited so this is probably kind of unfair... I mean hell even Giannis struggles at times because his shot isn't good enough.

BUT I think the reason we likely don't become a true contender is our stars are limited. If you stars are limited then you can't force the best teams to bend to your will.

Rudy - Can't shoot or dribble and can have his amazing defense at the rim negated by shooting bigs which are more and more common. If you can't punish teams on the offensive glass or at the rim then you are kinda screwed.

DM - is small... can be planned around by playing him as a PG or as a SG with a tall PG. Hasn't become a good enough passer yet... defense comes and goes, but he could be a solid two-way player. Has some limitations as a scorer... doesn't get to the line enough and is a two foot jumper. It's all stuff you can work with though.

So we will beat bad and average teams most nights, but will struggle at the highest levels. Not sure how we fix it but the focus should be in finding guys that can shoot and hold their own on defense... having a 5 out option would help, but still wouldn't be enough to compete at the highest level.

I remember you citing someone (Andy Larsen?) at the beginning of the season who said that we can win against anyone if Rudy, Donovan, Conley and Boyan all play well. Something of that sort. And that's a problem I guess because it's not so easy to achieve. Firstly, you need to get them all involved and secondly they need all 4 to be consistently at a good level. A lot of factors to come in place. Meanwhile Lakers have two superstars which makes them more efficient than our two All Stars plus two fringe All Stars combination.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

So yeah, our problem is that we only have 2 stars, and we need a 3rd to start contending.

Keep in mind Russell Westbrook/Paul George couldn't get past the 1st round.
Chris Paul/Blake Griffin couldn't get past the 2nd round.
Dame Lillard/CJ McCollum are probably going to miss the playoffs this year.

The league is that tough right now.

You need two way stars without major limitations. I don't think DM has major limitations... but he doesn't have the impact that Rudy can have... yet. I think Rudy has some limitations that will prevent us from getting to the highest levels, unless we get an elite setup man like CP.

I think we have some of the good role players too... just not enough two way role players.

The league is tough right now... and it will be tough in the future.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I remember you citing someone (Andy Larsen?) at the beginning of the season who said that we can win against anyone if Rudy, Donovan, Conley and Boyan all play well. Something of that sort. And that's a problem I guess because it's not so easy to achieve. Firstly, you need to get them all involved and secondly they need all 4 to be consistently at a good level. A lot of factors to come in place. Meanwhile Lakers have two superstars which makes them more efficient than our two All Stars plus two fringe All Stars combination.

I don't know if that has happened yet this year... I certainly don't think it happens 4 times in 7 games. I don't think we need all of them playing well but 3/4 and Rudy has to be effective covering everyone's asses on defense.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

No, he jumps away from the defender. Which I get, he has to so he can actually get the shot off, but that style of play is not going to get you many foul calls. Where he does get fouled is when he initiates the drive, out at the 3 point line, and yes he is strong enough to power through those reaches, but when he gets into the paint hes going to opposite direction of the defender.

I think he goes towards the basket and through contact... don't think he avoids it.

 

[Beer]

I think he goes towards the basket and through contact... don't think he avoids it.

Well you're wrong. Westbrook goes into people. He creates contact. Don does not. He's not picked on by the refs. The reason he shoots so few free throws is he doesn't draw contact.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

^
Jesus, seriously? Don’t be that ****ing guy. Please don’t. Mitchell doesn’t get to the line enough because he sucks at driving to the rim and is the only moron in the league who can’t jump off of one foot.

I wouldn't say it's because he sucks at driving, he's great at driving. He just settles for bad shots too often where he actively avoids contact. A bit too much "Mamba Mentality" at points.

 

[Miggs]

I wouldn't say it's because he sucks at driving, he's great at driving. He just settles for bad shots too often where he actively avoids contact. A bit too much "Mamba Mentality" at points.

I didn’t say driving. I said driving to the rim. His mind-boggling inability to jump off of one foot really prohibits him from doing so.

 

[LoPo]

Donovan is a complete player. So many around here take him for granted. Yes, he's still raw in some areas, but he is trying to do it all right now on a roster that seems to lack an identity.

Physically, he's a much bigger, better athlete than almost every 6'1" star type player we've seen. Donovan is 30+ pounds heavier than Chris Paul, 40+ pounds more than AI, 20 pounds heavier than Kyrie, Kemba, etc. Once he learns to balance out strength versus drawing the foul, I think he could be extremely special. That balance is/was key for guys like LeBron, Duncan, Kobe, Wade. Those guys learned to apply the strength some and "draw" the foul some.

If Mitchell could model his game in some ways after Harden, he could be one of the best players in the game. Harden shot up from 6FTA per game his 3rd year to 10+. If Donovan could go from 5FTA per game to around 10, we probably have 5 more wins this year. Harden learned how to get calls. Donovan could do the same. They are almost the same weight although of course Harden is taller. Donovan is a much better defender.

There is so much more growth possible for Donovan. As for Gobert, he is what he is. If he doesn't take over some in the playoffs, he's not our 2nd option for the future.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Well you're wrong. Westbrook goes into people. He creates contact. Don does not. He's not picked on by the refs. The reason he shoots so few free throws is he doesn't draw contact.

Maybe. I think he moves toward space instead of jumping sideways into dudes chests like Harden and other dudes do. I think he gets a lot of body contact before getting to the rim that goes uncalled... the type of **** Lou will gets because he's tiny and he will feel the guy on him and just shoot it.

He does try to euro step into space so I get it... I think most of the time his purpose isn't to avoid contact but to find open lanes. Like I don't think he is scared by it. He can do a lot to improve at the rim... even some of the stuff JC does where he stops and kinda pivots around...