The Minimum Wage and Hourly Rates Thread

[LogGrad98]

Ask the people who live here what all the help wanted signs say. Most low wage employers have been posting jobs above the federal minimum for a decade.

One example from college kids I know working at a Chevron station make about $15/hr plus about $5500/yr in tution reimbursement. I think McDonalds is $12 plus tuition. Target is $15/hr.

Thats’s fair. But my original post still stands. Maybe the numbers are off a bit. But having a national number is dumb.

Well obviously having a national number isn't an issue for every state, but it is for others. So the increase in federal minimum wage will not have much of an effect in Utah it sounds like. Then why is it an issue. It does sound funny, almost like "I'm against an increase in federal minimum wage because we already pay more than that", um, then why be against it?

 

[bigb]

I don’t like the idea of a federally mandated minimum wage. As stated here already, the differences in cost of living across a state (not to mention the country) are huge. $15 an hour is a lot different in Twin Falls, Idaho than in San Francisco. I think the minimum wage should be raised here in Utah (can’t speak for other states as I don’t know about them) and should have been years ago. But to say the high school kid bagging my groceries has to be making $15 an hour is ridiculous.


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[Jazz4ever]

I don’t like the idea of a federally mandated minimum wage. As stated here already, the differences in cost of living across a state (not to mention the country) are huge. $15 an hour is a lot different in Twin Falls, Idaho than in San Francisco. I think the minimum wage should be raised here in Utah (can’t speak for other states as I don’t know about them) and should have been years ago. But to say the high school kid bagging my groceries has to be making $15 an hour is ridiculous.


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Pretty much this but I'll take it a step farther. In small towns there would be no more grocery kids bagging groceries, everyone would turn into fully automated checkouts, instead of about half. Every fast food joint would be all kiosks. Mr robot also needs no vacations, never calls in sick, doesn't need health insurance, etc

 

[JazzGal]

$15 is a big jump and will be difficult to pass. $10 would be a much more palatable number.

Still, no one can support a family on $10 per hour in Utah. Housing costs are too high. And I do believe that anyone who works 40 hours should be paid enough to support themselves.

If there was a different minimum wage for part time work versus full time, that would be more fair for a high school student. But you know some businesses would then make all of their employees part-time workers to avoid the higher wage.

Complicated issue. Still, I'd rather they went with Romney's plan than do nothing because they tried to do too much.



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[One Brow]

Pretty much this but I'll take it a step farther. In small towns there would be no more grocery kids bagging groceries, everyone would turn into fully automated checkouts, instead of about half. Every fast food joint would be all kiosks. Mr robot also needs no vacations, never calls in sick, doesn't need health insurance, etc

Many customers will still want the human interaction. You fire all the cashiers, you lose those customers.

Unless you're really believe companies are still employing them right now out of the goodness of their corporate hearts.

 

[idestroyedthetoilet]

Well obviously having a national number isn't an issue for every state, but it is for others. So the increase in federal minimum wage will not have much of an effect in Utah it sounds like. Then why is it an issue. It does sound funny, almost like "I'm against an increase in federal minimum wage because we already pay more than that", um, then why be against it?

The only reason it's ever an issue is because we have two parties who need to permanently fight to keep their bases divided and votes coming in. I bet if you polled, over 80% would support a back adjustment to, say, the '97 raise and then index it. "Well, duh" would be the overwhelming response. But congress won't cuz they don't fix anything because then they wouldn't have something to fake fight about. So we get a) ludicrous $15/hr national proposed, and b) ludicrous wage because it has been raised one time since 1997, by something like half a quarter penny Thanks Obama!

Look into Paul Ryan and Obama on raising and expanding EITC. Everyone was for it but congress did nothing. A solution would need no more need for the babies.

 

[The Thriller]

Pretty much this but I'll take it a step farther. In small towns there would be no more grocery kids bagging groceries, everyone would turn into fully automated checkouts, instead of about half. Every fast food joint would be all kiosks. Mr robot also needs no vacations, never calls in sick, doesn't need health insurance, etc

So get rid of all min wage, right? Costs will plummet and the need to innovate will fall, right?

The number of excuses middle class people come up with to keep wages unbelievably low is just insane.

 

[The Thriller]

$15 is a big jump and will be difficult to pass. $10 would be a much more palatable number.

Still, no one can support a family on $10 per hour in Utah. Housing costs are too high. And I do believe that anyone who works 40 hours should be paid enough to support themselves.

If there was a different minimum wage for part time work versus full time, that would be more fair for a high school student. But you know some businesses would then make all of their employees part-time workers to avoid the higher wage.

Complicated issue. Still, I'd rather they went with Romney's plan than do nothing because they tried to do too much.



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You also have employers in the state that want to keep salaries low and then use local charity and government to bail them out. Walmart in particular does this. They pay employees terrible wages and then ask the government to feed their employees with food stamps.

Without government regulation, employers will do what they’ve proven time and time over to do, shun the responsibilities of paying adequate salaries and benefits onto the government, local charities, and religions.

 

[fishonjazz]

Pretty much this but I'll take it a step farther. In small towns there would be no more grocery kids bagging groceries, everyone would turn into fully automated checkouts, instead of about half. Every fast food joint would be all kiosks. Mr robot also needs no vacations, never calls in sick, doesn't need health insurance, etc

So these grocery stores can afford expensive machinery and technology but can't afford to pay employees more than minimum wage?

Also in these small towns that replace employees with these fully automated bots who buys their products now that no one has a job anymore? I would think that no one buying a business products would be bad for business even with robots running the place.

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[Jazz4ever]

So these grocery stores can afford expensive machinery and technology but can't afford to pay employees more than minimum wage?

Also in these small towns that replace employees with these fully automated bots who buys their products now that no one has a job anymore? I would think that no one buying a business products would be bad for business even with robots running the place.

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As a manager of a smaller chain, what choice is there when Walmart is using its power to beat you like a drum on price point? The technology is getting cheaper everyday, if it pays for itself in 3 years over a $15 an hour worker it has to be done. As a country we're headed down the path of universal basic income irregardless, would prefer it to happen in 20 years rather than in a couple though.

 

[fishonjazz]

As a manager of a smaller chain, what choice is there when Walmart is using its power to beat you like a drum on price point? The technology is getting cheaper everyday, if it pays for itself in 3 years over a $15 an hour worker it has to be done. As a country we're headed down the path of universal basic income irregardless, would prefer it to happen in 20 years rather than in a couple though.

Fair enough. Good response

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[candrew]

Ideally l'd like to leave minimum wage up to the states and the federal government provide universal basic income.

 

[bigb]

$15 is a big jump and will be difficult to pass. $10 would be a much more palatable number.

Still, no one can support a family on $10 per hour in Utah. Housing costs are too high. And I do believe that anyone who works 40 hours should be paid enough to support themselves.

If there was a different minimum wage for part time work versus full time, that would be more fair for a high school student. But you know some businesses would then make all of their employees part-time workers to avoid the higher wage.

Complicated issue. Still, I'd rather they went with Romney's plan than do nothing because they tried to do too much.



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You’re not meant to be able to support a family on minimum wage.

 

[gandalfe]

You’re not meant to be able to support a family on minimum wage.

Absolutely wrong.

Just ask FDR. (I believe that it was in this statement, when he signed the National Industrial Recovery Act, that he proposed a minimum wage, which he eventually signed into law - but it may have been proposed before this)

In my Inaugural I laid down the simple proposition that nobody is going to starve in this country. It seems to me to be equally plain that no business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country. By "business" I mean the whole of commerce as well as the whole of industry; by workers I mean all workers, the white collar class as well as the men in overalls; and by living wages I mean more than a bare subsistence level-I mean the wages of decent living.

Franklin D. Roosevelt Presidential Library and Museum - Our Documents

 

[Gameface]

I kind of struggle with that issue. I mean, yeah, an honest person providing their labor so that someone else can run a profitable business deserves to be paid enough to live on. I don't think that means supporting an entire family, necessarily, but enough that at full time employment they can afford reasonable shelter, reasonable food, clothing and some degree of enjoyment/entertainment.

Where I struggle is that kids taking jobs don't really need to be able to make that much and it'd be nice if there were positions they could fill that don't require the dedication, skill, value and all that which really justifies a "living wage." It's valuable for young people to be able to work in these "low yield" positions as part of learning how to exist in this society.

I don't know if that means that min wage should only apply to people 19 or above or if there is some other possible solution. I mean it's even a little more complicated than that with what are essentially retired people who just want to occupy some time and be out in the world doing something, and disabled people with similar goals where they want a low pressure, low stakes job that more or less just requires them to show up and interreact with other humans.

I'd hate to see all of those opportunities go away so that unskilled people can get a job that makes enough for a comfortable life without them having to put any effort into being equally valuable to their employer. At that point I'd just prefer a UBI (which I think is inevitable long term) to a high min wage.

 

[bigb]

Absolutely wrong.

Just ask FDR. (I believe that it was in this statement, when he signed the National Industrial Recovery Act, that he proposed a minimum wage, which he eventually signed into law - but it may have been proposed before this)

Franklin D. Roosevelt Presidential Library and Museum - Our Documents

There’s a lot that can be read in to there.
A “decent living” is entirely different to a 15 or 16 year old kid than a 32 year old man with 3 kids and a mortgage. As a 42 year old man with 6 kids and a mortgage and a whole bunch of other responsibilities, a “decent living” is still subjective. Is a “decent living” buying my kids food, clothes, and a roof while making sure they can do a few fun things every once in a great while? Or is it making sure they have an iPhone, a PlayStation 5, brand name clothes, the newest and best baseball bat, access to personal coaches, etc? Guess which one I was raised as.
If you’re going to tell me that minimum wage is meant to support a family with all of the modern expectations, you’d better tell me it should be $80,000 plus a year.


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[Darkwing Duck]

There’s a lot that can be read in to there.
A “decent living” is entirely different to a 15 or 16 year old kid than a 32 year old man with 3 kids and a mortgage. As a 42 year old man with 6 kids and a mortgage and a whole bunch of other responsibilities, a “decent living” is still subjective. Is a “decent living” buying my kids food, clothes, and a roof while making sure they can do a few fun things every once in a great while? Or is it making sure they have an iPhone, a PlayStation 5, brand name clothes, the newest and best baseball bat, access to personal coaches, etc? Guess which one I was raised as.
If you’re going to tell me that minimum wage is meant to support a family with all of the modern expectations, you’d better tell me it should be $80,000 plus a year.


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Do you think $15080 supports the way you were raised as in today's terms?

 

[The Thriller]

If you took all the monies spent to subsidize low wages (medicaid, free lunches, food stamps, etc) and applied them to a pure min wage, how high would it be? Companies tend to pay min wage to employees while dumping them off onto government to other for their groceries and healthcare.

 

[bigb]

Do you think $15080 supports the way you were raised as in today's terms?

I've never said I didn't think it should be raised. It should be. But a flat $15/hour nationwide isn't the way to go. Nor is the current $7.35 (or whatever it is here in Utah) the way to go.

 

[Darkwing Duck]

Economists suggest no more than 28% of gross monthly income should go to rent/mortgage. For $15 an hour, that's $728 a month in rent. Average rent along the Wasatch Front is somewhere around $1100 a month.

Hard to say that $15 an hour is a livable wage in Utah.