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Trade deadline discussion

SoberasHotRod said:
Royce is a good defender, but in my opinion much better against Forwards than guards. The reason he is consistently looking bad is because he guards who Donovan should be guarding.
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He's a good defender against forwards and a pretty bad defender against small fast guards. Definitely not some lock down defender that some try to make him out to be.
 
SoberasHotRod said:
I think you might be getting a little hung up on size. In theory Brogdon could be a better defender, but in the last couple of years he hasn't been. I'm pretty confident Brogdon would not make our team any better defensively, and most likely makes our team worse offensively.
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You haven't watched him much have you? He was widely regarded as the 2nd best defender on the team behind Turner. You underestimate size. In fact you ignore the blatant evidence of size being a major issue with Mike, DM, and Oneal being our primary defenders of perimeter players. It's one of the reasons we continually get burned. DM and Mike both have the speed to stay in front of guys, they just can't do anything to bother bigger players.
 
LogGrad98 said:
You haven't watched him much have you? He was widely regarded as the 2nd best defender on the team behind Turner. You underestimate size. In fact you ignore the blatant evidence of size being a major issue with Mike, DM, and Oneal being our primary defenders of perimeter players. It's one of the reasons we continually get burned. DM and Mike both have the speed to stay in front of guys, they just can't do anything to bother bigger players.
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Brogdan would probably be an upgrade size wise, but I can confirm Pacer fans are pretty fed up with him and he's not nearly as good as he was been, especially on D. They think he's a ball hog too, so I'm not sure he'd be a great fit with DM anymore. He was someone I wish they'd targeted before Conley too.
 
I think it's very hard to argue we are better with 3/4 of Mike than we would be with Brogdon. In fact it's mostly homer-glasses that would impart that view. Brogdon is a better offensive player, better rebounder, gets more assists, equal A/TO ratio and even if your consider them to be roughly equal defensive players Brogdon's size automatically makes him more versatile and valuable a defender than Conley.
 
campaignist said:
Brogdan would probably be an upgrade size wise, but I can confirm Pacer fans are pretty fed up with him and he's not nearly as good as he was been, especially on D. They think he's a ball hog too, so I'm not sure he'd be a great fit with DM anymore. He was someone I wish they'd targeted before Conley too.
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How much is this is Brogdon suddenly being crap vs how he is being used and what his role is on that team? He is the hero ball guy for them, but he's not made to do that. I think he'd thrive here as long as he could buy into Quin's system. We get lots of comments here about what a ball hog Donovan is, we just call it "hero" ball. And we have 2 of them (Donovan and Clarkson). I think people don't understand the difference the situation and environment can make. See Whiteside as an example.
 
Conley's problem defensively is simply that he's small. Bigger guards can just shoot over him, and Conley's close-outs on perimeter shooters are almost meaningless.
 
LogGrad98 said:
You haven't watched him much have you? He was widely regarded as the 2nd best defender on the team behind Turner. You underestimate size. In fact you ignore the blatant evidence of size being a major issue with Mike, DM, and Oneal being our primary defenders of perimeter players. It's one of the reasons we continually get burned. DM and Mike both have the speed to stay in front of guys, they just can't do anything to bother bigger players.
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Widely regarded by who? FYI, I live in Indy.
 
Ferguson_Mellochill said:
Conley's problem defensively is simply that he's small. Bigger guards can just shoot over him, and Conley's close-outs on perimeter shooters are almost meaningless.
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He's also noticeably lost a step, hence the comments about him being "still pretty fast for his age". Small and slow are bad combos as a defender.
 
SoberasHotRod said:
Widely regarded by who? FYI, I live in Indy.
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Media and analysts. Of course, fans always know better so I will completely ignore all stats and analysis in favor of fan opinions. My bad.

Did you see the article I posted? There are more articles just like that.
 
LogGrad98 said:
He's also noticeably lost a step, hence the comments about him being "still pretty fast for his age". Small and slow are bad combos as a defender.
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I'm not sure if he's lost a step or not, but at his size he really needs to push his body to its limits to compete physically. He may be taking it down a notch on purpose so he doesn't strain his hammy.
 
LogGrad98 said:
Media and analysts. Of course, fans always know better so I will completely ignore all stats and analysis in favor of fan opinions. My bad.

Did you see the article I posted? There are more articles just like that.
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I skimmed through it, but it was pretty bad, and old.

I agree that fans aren't always the best, and local media isn't always the best. However, there is pretty much universal agreement by the people who watch him every day that I have to listen to, that he is a bad defender.

No defensive stat is great, but this is a decent one. Players are shooting -2.1efg% worse when guarded by Mike Conley vs 1.9% efg% better when guarded by Brogdon.
 
Just noticed that Marcus Smart has a big extension kicking in next season. That might take him out of consideration for the Jazz. He's nice as a $13M player, not as nice at $18M - $20M.
 
infection said:
Here's the trade:

Move Hughes and Udoka anywhere and for anything (besides salary).
Sign Dunn. Sign Johnson.
Waive Oni.

You've now made some shrewd and underrated basketball moves and you've also made some really good financial decisions.

Then watch Quin not use either guy and we flame out in the same fashion. At least your tax bill is lower.
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Who is Johnson and for god sake I’d rather develop both Hughes and Oni then trade for Dunn. What’s the point? He’s not seeing time in this rotation.
 
LogGrad98 said:
Which is sad commentary on all of our other guards, tbh.
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Very true.

Also, since I'll be logging off here for awhile. I just wanted to get back to my main point, which wasn't necessarily Conley vs Brogdon. My main point is that I don't think Brogdon is a good enough defender to make up for the difference in how bad Mitchell plays.
 
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