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Building around Williams was a mistake, time to move on

L

Lord of Turnovers

New Member
Elite point guards = no rings.

Look at 4 greatest PGs currently in the league - Nash, Kidd, CP3, Deron. 0 championships. Look at the teams who actually won anything in the last decade, all of them had either an OK (Billups, Parker, Rondo-08) or below average point guard (Fisher, Williams). And it goes way back - how many rings does Stockton have? Payton? Kevin Johnson? What great points were on the Bulls or Rockets rosters?

Great PGs simply soak up too much of cap space and do not produce enough: their teams are always well-run and consistently good, but never great. What about the favorite Jazz thing, pairing a great PG with a great PF? We tried it with Stockton and Malone, Deron and Boozer, the Mavs - with Nash and Dirk, the Suns - with Nash and Amare. Yeah, several MVPs came out of it, but again - no rings.

Now, what player brings rings? A great SG does, all three best ones have it - Kobe, Wade, MJ. A great center does too - Duncan, Shaq, Hakim.. Howard was pretty close, Yao was just derailed by injuries. The collection of inexpensive, but solid veteran players works too (although very rarely) - see the Detroit team. I deliberately left out the way to the championship via getting several superstars on the same team by trades - Utah is not L.A. or Boston.

The bottom line - if we keep trying building around Deron, we are doomed to being good, but not great. We need to trade him for a superstar SG or center - or for the first draft pick to draft such a player. Or the Jazz should try to assemble something like the Detroit team of 5 years ago.
 
Is that you, Drivewayball? Did you discontinue your old account after registering with the Bulls message board, then decide to git a new handle here, that it?
 
What did Kobe win without Shaq/Gasol?
What did Wade win without Shaq?
What has LeBron won without a big guy in his prime?
Stockton had Malone but they got Jordanized
Payton had Kemp? Hardly a dominant big guy
Kevin Johnson had a 6'5 Barkley?

Jordan was the once in a lifetime exception.

Deron is a piece on a championship team. Nobody(with a brain) would disagree. Building around AK was the mistake. Not Deron.
 
Remind me again, how many rings do the last seven great PGs have? Stockton, Payton, Johnson, Kidd, Nash, DWill, CP3? And how many rings belong to the last seven greatest centers or SGs?
 
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Lord of Turnovers said:
Remind me again, how many rings last seven great PGs have? Stockton, Payton, Johnson, Kidd, Nash, DWill, CP3?
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Remind which big guy they had? Big guys win championships not PGs. I don't think anyone will disagree. You are trying to make something simple when it's not. 8 franchises out of 30 in the last 20 years have won championship(s).

Who should they trade DWIll for?
 
Lord of Turnovers said:
Remind me again, how many rings last seven great PGs have? Stockton, Payton, Johnson, Kidd, Nash, DWill, CP3?
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Why don't you first remind us, if you can, just how and why your logical fallacies are relevant, eh? Saying Magic Johnson had Kareem is just another way of sayin Kareem had Magic Johnson. And of course Mahorn, Laimbeer, Rodman, et al had Isiah, just as he "had" them.

Just want you want, sho nuff: a team with a mediocre point guard. Parker, Rondo, and Billups are crap point guards? Like, who knew, eh?
 
The point guard is simply the least important position in the NBA. Paying big money to the star point prevents the team from signing the players to other postions, those that really matter. And, even worse, the great point can single-handedly keep the team out of the lottery, so no building through the draft either.

The team with Jason Williams or Derek Fisher running the point has a better shot at winning it all that with the future Hall of Famer.
 
Hopper said:
Why don't you first remind us, if you can, just how and why your logical fallacies are relevant, eh? Saying Magic Johnson had Kareem is just another way of sayin Kareem had Magic Johnson. ...
Just want you want, sho nuff: a team with a mediocre point guard. Parker, Rondo, and Billups are crap point guards? Like, who knew, eh?
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Magic was not a point guard, he was essentially a point forward.

Parker, Rondo and Billups were Ok point guards and payed as such, their teams had money to aquire other pieces. Players like Kidd, DWill, CP3 get payed max money or close to it. But they do not produce like max players. That's the problem.
 
Lord, you make a very interesting and counterintuitive point there. I think that most here do want to go with it, as I did not, as we have been taught via Stockton and Deron to think that a top pg is crucial. Your list is pretty dang compelling though.

I guess the exceptions would be Isiah and Magic. Magic though was surrounded with talent galore and he was a unique species of pg so maybe he is not the best example either.

A minor criticism of your thread is that the Jazz have not "built around" Deron, they just plugged him in. At this point in time, they will be trying to build around him. If you are right, the Jazz should buck up and trade him right now for max value in a SG or SF or center. He is likely leaving in 2 years anyway.
 
I don't think Deron being a star PG is the problem.
You need at least two superstars to compete for a title.

You can't build around one superstar player. It didn't work for Lebron. It didn't work for Kobe until he got Gasol.
We've got to find another star player to play with Deron. Boozer was not good enough.
 
Hopper said:
The team with Jason Williams or Derek Fisher running the point has a better shot at winning it all that with the future Hall of Famer.
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Fisher doesn't want to err Doctor won't let him him play in Utah. DWill for Jason Williams would probably work for ORL.
 
The Jazz are, and have for the last few years been, paying two players max money. Deron is only one of them.
 
Revolution 9 said:
I don't think Deron being a star PG is the problem.
You need at least two superstars to compete for a title.

You can't build around one superstar player. It didn't work for Lebron. It didn't work for Kobe until he got Gasol.
We've got to find another star player to play with Deron. Boozer was not good enough.
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Here we go again. Years of Stockton and Malone, Nash and Dirk, and Nash and Stoudemire were not enough, I guess? To win a championship the team typically needs a superstar wing + a superstar 7-footer. The great PGs are simply to easily neutralized to the large degree by having a cheap veteran point, like Grandpa Fisher.

And great bigs or wings would simply destroy the opposing player of that level. How often do the coaches lose sleep thinking "Who should I defend DWill or Chris Paul with?" But they do go crazy thinking about defending Howard, Shaq, Wade or Durant.
 
Lord of Turnovers said:
Here we go again. Years of Stockton and Malone, Nash and Dirk and Nash and Stoudemire were not enough, I guess? To win a championship the team needs a superstar wing + a superstar 7-footer. The great PGs are simply to easily neutralized to the large degree by having a cheap veteran point, like Grandpa Fisher.
While great bigs or wings would simply destroy the opposing player of that level. How often do the coaches lose sleep thinking "Who should I defend DWill or Chris Paul with?" But they do go crazy thinking about defending Howard, Shaq, Wade or Durant.
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What no brainer trade are the Jazz passing up?

DWill for Durant?
DWill for Wade?
DWill for Kobe?
DWIll for Gasol?
DWill for Howard?
 
If what you say in your post is true, why would a team trade us an elite big or sg in exchange for an elite PG to build around since it's a mistake to do so?
 
You fools.... you are mistaking the smallest person on the team for being the floor general.

Kobe is the floor general... chock up 5 championships for him
Wade was the floor general... chock up a championship for him.
San Antonio's team's strategy has to deal with ball movement, not creating a specific floor general but allotting equal importance to every position, and they've always had great ball moving big men opening up more opportunities for the slashers. That equates to 4 championships for them.
Billups was the floor general on one championship team, but also he was the floor general on another finals team and 4 more teams too make it to the conference finals. He is an elite point guard, don't kid yourself.
MJ and Pippen were the floor generals in the great bulls teams, Pippen usually brought the ball up the floor.

Don't kid yourself... the floor general is the most important position, and we have a damn good one. But yes a floor general is nothing without talent, and we may not have enough, and maybe we do. There are not many players a team would rather have then Deron... Lebron, Kobe, Dwayne Wade and maybe Durant (I'd say his impact is equal to Deron)... thats about it... anybody else isn't going to bring a championship to Utah in place of Deron.
Dwight Howard- he's good, but he's shut down constantly, he won't be a champion until he has a good floor general.
Carmello- seriously?
 
Lord of Turnovers said:
Here we go again. Years of Stockton and Malone, Nash and Dirk, and Nash and Stoudemire were not enough, I guess? To win a championship the team typically needs a superstar wing + a superstar 7-footer. The great PGs are simply to easily neutralized to the large degree by having a cheap veteran point, like Grandpa Fisher.

And great bigs or wings would simply destroy the opposing player of that level. How often do the coaches lose sleep thinking "Who should I defend DWill or Chris Paul with?" But they do go crazy thinking about defending Howard, Shaq, Wade or Durant.
Click to expand...

That's because they know the NBA is rigged and they aren't allowed to "defend" those guys if Stern doesn't want you to. NBA = WWE , it's all entertainment... nothing in it is real. As soon as you accept that, the calmer and happier your life will be.
 
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