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Summer League Thread

stitches said:
Yeah... the reason I think it should be taken serious as a worry for him is that it's not just in SL that this happened. It was happening in his team in France too. He was not relied to create offense or even finish offensive possessions. And he looked similar to what you and Elizah are describing... some flashes of great play... but then he would just float...

BTW, don't know if you watched the FIBA U19 games last week... but Risacher is WORSE than Bilal in that respect. He floats and disappears even among players same age as him. It was shocking watching him and reading mock drafts having him top 3 next year.
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The thing that Bilal has that these guys dont is elite athleticism. It's what's going to allow him to leverage all his other skills.

I ended up being pretty high on Bilal at the end of the pre-draft process, but SL has definitely made me even higher. I think he's closer than I gave him credit for.
 
KqWIN said:
Me and HH were talking about this earlier. Bilal will start to go off, making multiple plays in a one minutes span. Then he won't touch the ball for the next 10+ minutes. I don't know what to make of it. It's definitely on him to some extent, but it's also hard to put blame on guys when their teammates are SL chucking. When Luka, for example, is freezing Keyonte out of the game it's not something to hold against Keyonte. Playing with two versions of Johnny Davis isn't helping him but he isn't helping himself either.
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My super simple take is... I don't get how someone is slobbering over themselves with regard to Bilal based on flashes in summer league. His physical profile is impressive but its not something jaw dropping in person. He was invisible for like 90% of a summer league game I watched so I am not encouraged by that at all... especially as he is supposed to be a do **** guy... so not having the ball shouldn't matter all that much. He made some good defensive plays in the other games, which is good.

I wouldn't declare him a bust based on a few summer league games... but also I'm not going to slobber over some flashes in summer league... lots of guys show flashes. I'm not going to assume all the warts magically heal with time. Just saw Josh Okogie sign for the minimum... like sometimes it doesn't happen.

I would say summer league and rookie year you want to be surprised (like with Key). If you aren't then I'd be slightly lower on a guy because he's had one opportunity to "pop"... it also could be nothing. I'm just not that into guys that you can pass off on all their warts because they are raw... but also we are supposed to imagine their best flashes with 20 lbs more muscle and 5x more skill... or their lack of production is playing with player X (though Johnny Davis is uhhhh.... bad bad). I get we are projecting where they will be in 3-4 years+... but with a road that long I have a hard time believing he should be a top 10 guy and is oozing with potential. He's much more likely to be Herb Jones than like Paul George or some ****. I see solid/mid potential... not some kid oozing with potential to be some all-nba two-way wing.

Based on what I have seen I am glad we did not draft him... not an indictment on his future but I'm good not taking on that kinda project at #9.
 
Also if you think Bilal's usage and role in summer league is rough with Johnny Davis... wait until he shares the court with Jordan Poole and Kyle Kuzma in full Wiz chuck mode.
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
My super simple take is... I don't get how someone is slobbering over themselves with regard to Bilal based on flashes in summer league. His physical profile is impressive but its not something jaw dropping in person. He was invisible for like 90% of a summer league game I watched so I am not encouraged by that at all... especially as he is supposed to be a do **** guy... so not having the ball shouldn't matter all that much. He made some good defensive plays in the other games, which is good.

I wouldn't declare him a bust based on a few summer league games... but also I'm not going to slobber over some flashes in summer league... lots of guys show flashes. I'm not going to assume all the warts magically heal with time. Just saw Josh Okogie sign for the minimum... like sometimes it doesn't happen.

I would say summer league and rookie year you want to be surprised (like with Key). If you aren't then I'd be slightly lower on a guy because he's had one opportunity to "pop"... it also could be nothing. I'm just not that into guys that you can pass off on all their warts because they are raw... but also we are supposed to imagine their best flashes with 20 lbs more muscle and 5x more skill... or their lack of production is playing with player X (though Johnny Davis is uhhhh.... bad bad). I get we are projecting where they will be in 3-4 years+... but with a road that long I have a hard time believing he should be a top 10 guy and is oozing with potential. He's much more likely to be Herb Jones than like Paul George or some ****. I see solid/mid potential... not some kid oozing with potential to be some all-nba two-way wing.

Based on what I have seen I am glad we did not draft him... not an indictment on his future but I'm good not taking on that kinda project at #9.
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Love when Cy laughs at me... I saw him from row 2 in person my man.
 
Saint Cy of JFC said:
This is going to be a fun thread to bump in 4 years.
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Me: Sets calendar appointment for 2027.

Notes: Reminder to bump the summer league thread so that Cy can crow about guessing right on a raw prospect in bombastic fashion. Or bump the thread and have him give 12 excuses why he was right and still needs time or a better situation to succeed. It was promised to be "fun".
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
Love when Cy laughs at me... I saw him from row 2 in person my man.
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That's great you have that opinion.

Just think a lot of what you said was frankly laughable and amounted to saying nothing. (We really going to throw out a casual Josh Okogie comp? Is this like when you compared JHS and Johnny Davis because they both sometimes take midrange shots?)

This is a foreign 18 year old who is just fresh off playing actual structured basketball and not prepping for the draft for 4 straight months. What he has done in SL has been great. He's not an on-ball dominate player atm so he isnt going to just suddenly play on-ball the entire game and pop. He showed what you would want him to show for his archetype and where he is at currently in his development.

I guess if you wernet a believer before, nothing like this is really going to change your mind, and that's fine. But no one should be lower on him as a result of what has gone on in SL IMO.
 
stitches said:
Yeah... the reason I think it should be taken serious as a worry for him is that it's not just in SL that this happened. It was happening in his team in France too. He was not relied to create offense or even finish offensive possessions. And he looked similar to what you and Elizah are describing... some flashes of great play... but then he would just float...

BTW, don't know if you watched the FIBA U19 games last week... but Risacher is WORSE than Bilal in that respect. He floats and disappears even among players same age as him. It was shocking watching him and reading mock drafts having him top 3 next year.
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I'm open to other opinions on this but it's not really a concern that his role was very restricted in the French Senior league. If he was a teenager doing a lot on offense...well he'd be a can't miss prospect like Wemby haha. I was interested to see what his aggression level would be like in SL. Would he return to being the French Michael Jordan? So far the answer is....mixed. Generally when he touches the ball he's fairly aggressive. If he's the one taking the ball up on the court, he's not just pulling an Exum and making one pass into standing in corner. When he has it, he's aggressive in trying to make offensive attacks. But when he doesn't have the ball, he is kinda just floating and he will disappear. There's not a lot of teamwork on the Wiz SL league team. So yeah, I'd say he's aggressive when he has the ball but also barely has the ball.

I think his SL can be summed up in one clip. Nice pullup (but he missed), transition dunk, great in and out drive, incredible block....but it's only a 43 second span and that's the bad part. That was a really impressive minute of basketball, but it was only one minute. he hardly touched the basketball until the end of the 4th quarter lol. If you just watched this clip you he looks really nice, but understand almost nothing happened after this clip (he did ice the game with a step back jumper though). I don't think there's a "correct" way to interpret what this means.


View: https://twitter.com/youngwizzyDFS/status/1678428447951974401



Honestly, I think using the wisdom of crowds is probably a better way to gauge Bilal's performance in SL....and by that I mean the wisdom of crowds that are not here lol. We've had a lot of heated debates about this draft cycle that has led to some crazy things. Made up box scores, draftexpress hit piece conspiracy theories....yeah I think it's good for all of us (myself included) to touch some grass.
 
Here are the top NBA Rookie Summer League scorers over the past 4 summer leagues (was not played in 2020):

1689190843737.png

Typically the top scorers every year are 2nd and 3rd year NBA players, so when a rookie scores well in summer league it is usually a pretty good sign they will play well in the league. It's not always a great sign though (See 2019 top rookie scorers).
 
Saint Cy of JFC said:
That's great you have that opinion.

Just think a lot of what you said was frankly laughable and amounted to saying nothing. (We really going to throw out a casual Josh Okogie comp? Is this like when you compared JHS and Johnny Davis because they both sometimes take midrange shots?)

This is a foreign 18 year old who is just fresh off playing actual structured basketball and not prepping for the draft for 4 straight months. What he has done in SL has been great. He's not an on-ball dominate player atm so he isnt going to just suddenly play on-ball the entire game and pop. He showed what you would want him to show for his archetype and where he is at currently in his development.

I guess if you wernet a believer before, nothing like this is really going to change your mind, and that's fine. But no one should be lower on him as a result of what has gone on in SL IMO.
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The take was essentially designed to not say a whole lot... because you can't really say anything about what he has done. The flashes folks are slobbering over are pretty basic **** you see (other than the blocks but those happen too) from many wings at SL... and he is mostly invisible whether by design or not.

Okogie wasn't a casual comp... but if you read it was an example of a guy that showed flashes and they'd say if he just does XYZ then imagine.... but those things never came. He was a guy I saw at summer league and just saw signed for a minimum. Bilal is much bigger and longer.

I'm essentially saying I don't like guys that you can't judge at all for 1-2 years because they are so raw... if we did draft one of those guys I would hope at summer league he showed out and surprised. He has not done that when I have watched. Those pounding their chest at some blocks and basic offense should probably chill... those declaring him a bust should probably wait.
 
This is a list of how the eventual top Rookies scored in their rookie season summer leagues:

1689191194976.png

Not being able to score at an elite level in the summer league isn't that big of a deal, but most of the guys showed at least some ability to score points.
 
SoberasHotRod said:
Here are the top NBA Rookie Summer League scorers over the past 4 summer leagues (was not played in 2020):

View attachment 14882

Typically the top scorers every year are 2nd and 3rd year NBA players, so when a rookie scores well in summer league it is usually a pretty good sign they will play well in the league. It's not always a great sign though (See 2019 top rookie scorers).
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God, Just looked at the NAW stat lines from that year. That was a huge fake out. Reminder that these things can happen and SL can mean absolutely nothing.
 
SoberasHotRod said:
Here are the top NBA Rookie Summer League scorers over the past 4 summer leagues (was not played in 2020):

View attachment 14882

Typically the top scorers every year are 2nd and 3rd year NBA players, so when a rookie scores well in summer league it is usually a pretty good sign they will play well in the league. It's not always a great sign though (See 2019 top rookie scorers).
Click to expand...
I actually remember watching Nunn in 2019 and being super impressed... wasn't just his numbers it was that he was clearly just faster/shiftier than the other guys. He was good until the injuries derailed his career.
 
SoberasHotRod said:
This is a list of how the eventual top Rookies scored in their rookie season summer leagues:

View attachment 14883

Not being able to score at an elite level in the summer league isn't that big of a deal, but most of the guys showed at least some ability to score points.
Click to expand...
1689191565598.png

Austin Reaves SL stats (5th year senior and struggled this badly, shows SL can mean absolutely nothing)
 
SoberasHotRod said:
This is a list of how the eventual top Rookies scored in their rookie season summer leagues:

View attachment 14883

Not being able to score at an elite level in the summer league isn't that big of a deal, but most of the guys showed at least some ability to score points.
Click to expand...
this is why you don't panic if your rookie doesn't have a great SL. but it's still a pretty damn good sign if your rookie dominates based on the other table that was posted where 7 out of 12 of the top rookie scorers became really good players in the league - 8 of 12 if you count Nunn who was a 15 ppg guy as a rookie and second year player before injuries took their toll.
 
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