Trade ideas

[HermanG]

If he can’t get touches in this rat team then I don’t know who’s going to give him enough touches. His three point shooting was absolutely 100% his best chance to change his value and that part has been good. Not having PnR ball handlers or a spaced floor can explain some of his other regression pretty easily.

Bear down @Saint Cy of JFC there is an analogy coming later.

He cant get touches because most of the ones who initially possess the ball arent finding hay from a haystack.

I mean what is he supposed to do? Bring the ball up the court?

Besides, Collins is as much of a black hole play finisher than Lauri. One of my least favorite things avout him.

 

[HermanG]

The idea of keeping Collins to squeeze out a modicum of positive value in return relative to what we gave up is the textbook definition of sunk-cost, even if that sunk cost was just opportunity. Well, that and $80M.

The idea is not to squeeze out value. The idea is that he can become a positive piece in the long run, and even if thats not the case the right time to trade him is not now.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Analogy for @infection to enjoy and @Saint Cy of JFC to hate and not understand.

John Collins is the nice house you bought for too much money. You wanted the house... its a nice house but you rushed into it thinking there wouldn't be much of an opportunity to buy something similar later at a better value. Its fine if you live in it and you don't "realize" the loss... and it is a nice house but you start to look around and think about what are the other costs of paying too much for the house. It'd be nice to take more and better vacations... but the house payment is a bit much for that. "oh look at that investment opportunity... crap... I don't have the money for it cuz the house payment is just a bit much". You start to see some comps come in (Naz Reid at 3/41 and Harrison Barnes at 3/54) and you realize that even though you fixed up the yard a little... you aren't going to get what you paid for in this house.

We could put some money into putting a pool in the yard and get new flooring (a PnR pg) to increase the value of the house and make it "show better". Then you realize that seems like throwing good money after bad.

While you will survive the house payment and live on the hamster wheel because you can afford it... you lost out on some opportunities (cap space, pt for young players, acquiring better fitting vets to help boost our young players and star).

Unless you find a sucker you just keep making payments until the mortgage runs out I guess.

 

[HermanG]

Either way, does nothing for his trade value. The problem with the Jazz being in this flipping assets mode is that we are not a team that showcases talent and makes players look better than they are. We are the team that makes everyone look worse.

And this is exactly why Collins wont be traded. No one comes calling for him, and dumping him ala Favors is not an option for any bad team (besides he isnt harmful or toxic or anything).

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

He cant get touches because most of the ones who initially possess the ball arent finding hay from a haystack.

I mean what is he supposed to do? Bring the ball up the court?

Besides, Collins is as much of a black hole play finisher than Lauri. One of my least favorite things avout him.

Yes I understand this... I understood this the day of the trade... it won't change. He could have his value tick up a smidge if we had better PnR ball handlers but at this point we'd have to move 2 of JC/THT/Sexton and ask Key to take a bit of a backseat to let a mid vet be more prominent.

It was just a bad move. While the transaction cost was Rudy Gay and a second we are ignoring the amount of "dead money" Collins has on his deal. I'd say he is worse than a guy like Naz Reid by a substantial margin. So there is easily 25-30M in dead money there... and we gave like 6-7M in dead money in Gay... I think we got ripped off.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

And this is exactly why Collins wont be traded. No one comes calling for him, and dumping him ala Favors is not an option for any bad team (besides he isnt harmful or toxic or anything).

He could be moved but its for guys like Lonzo, Adams/Clarke - who are not playing and on big deals. He could also be moved in the Zach Lavine (our problem for your problem) type scenario.

We have no urgency to move him I will agree there. KO/THT/JC are all more likely to be moved. Tech maybe but he doesn't have a history of performing so may not yield something worthwhile... and he may re-sign at a bargain deal. I wouldn't move him for a crappy second... maybe a couple good seconds but I'm convinced he's actually an NBA rotation wing.

 

[HermanG]

Analogy for @infection to enjoy and @Saint Cy of JFC to hate and not understand.

John Collins is the nice house you bought for too much money. You wanted the house... its a nice house but you rushed into it thinking there wouldn't be much of an opportunity to buy something similar later at a better value. Its fine if you live in it and you don't "realize" the loss... and it is a nice house but you start to look around and think about what are the other costs of paying too much for the house. It'd be nice to take more and better vacations... but the house payment is a bit much for that. "oh look at that investment opportunity... crap... I don't have the money for it cuz the house payment is just a bit much". You start to see some comps come in (Naz Reid at 3/41 and Harrison Barnes at 3/54) and you realize that even though you fixed up the yard a little... you aren't going to get what you paid for in this house.

We could put some money into putting a pool in the yard and get new flooring (a PnR pg) to increase the value of the house and make it "show better". Then you realize that seems like throwing good money after bad.

While you will survive the house payment and live on the hamster wheel because you can afford it... you lost out on some opportunities (cap space, pt for young players, acquiring better fitting vets to help boost our young players and star).

Unless you find a sucker you just keep making payments until the mortgage runs out I guess.

I agree about most of this.

Maybe the guy bought the house because he wants to live there when the kids grow up, but it was premature cause they were toddlers at that point.

Collins next contract starts at age 28, the supposed beginning of NBA prime. And it projects to be much cheaper. Glow ups are not out of the question either.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Analogy for @infection to enjoy and @Saint Cy of JFC to hate and not understand.

John Collins is the nice house you bought for too much money. You wanted the house... its a nice house but you rushed into it thinking there wouldn't be much of an opportunity to buy something similar later at a better value. Its fine if you live in it and you don't "realize" the loss... and it is a nice house but you start to look around and think about what are the other costs of paying too much for the house. It'd be nice to take more and better vacations... but the house payment is a bit much for that. "oh look at that investment opportunity... crap... I don't have the money for it cuz the house payment is just a bit much". You start to see some comps come in (Naz Reid at 3/41 and Harrison Barnes at 3/54) and you realize that even though you fixed up the yard a little... you aren't going to get what you paid for in this house.

We could put some money into putting a pool in the yard and get new flooring (a PnR pg) to increase the value of the house and make it "show better". Then you realize that seems like throwing good money after bad.

While you will survive the house payment and live on the hamster wheel because you can afford it... you lost out on some opportunities (cap space, pt for young players, acquiring better fitting vets to help boost our young players and star).

Unless you find a sucker you just keep making payments until the mortgage runs out I guess.

To me Collins is the kitchen accessory you buy that you think you are going to use all the time then you realize it's too much hassle to use and clean, and it's really only useful for like 1-2 things you like to do, so you end up only using it a few times a year just so you dont feel like you wasted money. You throw it in the corner so it doesnt take up too much counter space.

rate my analogy @infection

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

The idea of keeping Collins to squeeze out a modicum of positive value in return relative to what we gave up is the textbook definition of sunk-cost, even if that sunk cost was just opportunity. Well, that and $80M.

If we were going to make that investment into a flip we needed to also have the budget to bring in a pg to help feed him. We did the opposite.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

To me Collins is the kitchen accessory you buy that you think you are going to use all the time then you realize it's too much hassle to use and clean, and it's really only useful for like 1-2 things you like to do, so you end up only using it a few times a year just so you dont feel like you wasted money.

Look at you. I'm cool with this too... I like the house because of the contractual on-going element but he can also be the fancy vitamix or whatever too. Problem is its likely easier to find a sucker to buy that from you at close to what you paid for it.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Look at you. I'm cool with this too... I like the house because of the contractual on-going element but he can also be the fancy vitamix or whatever too. Problem is its likely easier to find a sucker to buy that from you at close to what you paid for it.

I added a bit at the end that makes it a stronger analogy.

 

[infection]

In the LDS world, Dallin Oaks gave a reasonably popular talk 15 or so years ago about "Good, Better, Best," that could be retrofitted to be about situations like the Collins situation. It's good, but it's neither better nor best.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I added a bit at the end that makes it a stronger analogy.

I think John Collins as the ice cream maker machine is a solid analogy... I'll add to it (real-life here). It was spendy and you didn't realize what goes into making a good homemade ice cream. So you make some basic stuff but you realize the ingredients cost as much as buying the stuff in store... and the quality is basically the same. But when you make it the kids love it... cuz they love ice cream. So when Collins gets his double double everyone claps cuz why not... its ice cream. when you realize you paid $15 for a half gallon of ice cream you could have bought for $5 you are like "****... but at least I took a long time and have all these dishes to do".

Storing it is another thing, but you can't put John Collins on the top rack of the garage to gather dust.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

I think John Collins as the ice cream maker machine is a solid analogy... I'll add to it (real-life here). It was spendy and you didn't realize what goes into making a good homemade ice cream. So you make some basic stuff but you realize the ingredients cost as much as buying the stuff in store... and the quality is basically the same. But when you make it the kids love it... cuz they love ice cream. So when Collins gets his double double everyone claps cuz why not... its ice cream. when you realize you paid $15 for a half gallon of ice cream you could have bought for $5 you are like "****... but at least I took a long time and have all these dishes to do".

Storing it is another thing, but you can't put John Collins on the top rack of the garage to gather dust.

Perfect, I was thinking about some kind of accessory heavy item you buy that doesnt come with anything then you realize you have to have all the extra parts to make the main thing make sense and it just becomes to much of a hassle.

 

[infection]

To me Collins is the kitchen accessory you buy that you think you are going to use all the time then you realize it's too much hassle to use and clean, and it's really only useful for like 1-2 things you like to do, so you end up only using it a few times a year just so you dont feel like you wasted money. You throw it in the corner so it doesnt take up too much counter space.

rate my analogy @infection

Pretty good for a first one. I'm proud. It's like seeing your rookie come in and drop 18 on 6/16 shooting. I'll focus on the 18.

 

[infection]

I think John Collins as the ice cream maker machine is a solid analogy... I'll add to it (real-life here). It was spendy and you didn't realize what goes into making a good homemade ice cream. So you make some basic stuff but you realize the ingredients cost as much as buying the stuff in store... and the quality is basically the same. But when you make it the kids love it... cuz they love ice cream. So when Collins gets his double double everyone claps cuz why not... its ice cream. when you realize you paid $15 for a half gallon of ice cream you could have bought for $5 you are like "****... but at least I took a long time and have all these dishes to do".

Storing it is another thing, but you can't put John Collins on the top rack of the garage to gather dust.

Is this the tl;dr version of "developing the next Neto instead of just signing Neto"? If so it's a better way to put it.

 

[HeatCheck]

Would a team like Detroit have interest in Collins? At some point they need to start putting competent NBA players on the floor next to Cade. Collins isn't ideal and he's way overpaid but does play a position of need for them. Just thinking out loud...

Presti had the right idea when rebuilding OKC to rent out capspace to acquire 1sts. Ainge must've thought this team was further along or really believed Collins would be another Lauri rebuild situation. I dunno. It was fairly obvious even to internet GM's that Collins was not a fit especially with the current frontcourt coupled with the complete lack of playmaking.

Also his on/off numbers are just terrible. I do wonder if the Jazz were quietly fine to sit him last night in OKC because they knew the starters would get demolished again. Kinda hard to sell Collins as a positive contributor when his +/- numbers are so awful every game. With his salary they really can't bench him either. Hawks were dealing with similar issues which is probably the reason Quin didn't want to deal with the headache for a guy who really doesn't impact winning.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Perfect, I was thinking about some kind of accessory heavy item you buy that doesnt come with anything then you realize you have to have all the extra parts to make the main thing make sense and it just becomes to much of a hassle.

I think the worst one I bought was an ice cream machine. I have some pasta maker attachments for the kitchenaid that I use less than I hoped. I have a fancy pizza oven thing that I think I'm getting moderate use out of... But the top two things I recommend:

- Shave ice machine... not the dumb $40 snoopy one. An actual ice shaver. Kids and adults all love the shave ice and you just have to freeze a few blocks and keep some of the main flavors on hand... and its just sugary stuff so it really doesn't go bad. I literally think I've made a thousand shave ices at this point.

- Cotton candy machine. Its a couple hundred dollars... but the ingredients are easy and store well. This one is only good if you have kids but they love it and again the stuff is so cheap.

Everytime we are out and about and the kids see either shave ice or cotton candy I tell them no and save $8 and tell them we can do it at home.

Don't buy an ice cream machine though its a real John collins.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Is this the tl;dr version of "developing the next Neto instead of just signing Neto"? If so it's a better way to put it.

Yes. To make the fancy ice creams you have to temper eggs and ****. Just buy Ben and Jerry's you are welcome.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

I think the worst one I bought was an ice cream machine. I have some pasta maker attachments for the kitchenaid that I use less than I hoped. I have a fancy pizza oven thing that I think I'm getting moderate use out of... But the top two things I recommend:

- Shave ice machine... not the dumb $40 snoopy one. An actual ice shaver. Kids and adults all love the shave ice and you just have to freeze a few blocks and keep some of the main flavors on hand... and its just sugary stuff so it really doesn't go bad. I literally think I've made a thousand shave ices at this point.

- Cotton candy machine. Its a couple hundred dollars... but the ingredients are easy and store well. This one is only good if you have kids but they love it and again the stuff is so cheap.

Everytime we are out and about and the kids see either shave ice or cotton candy I tell them no and save $8 and tell them we can do it at home.

Don't buy an ice cream machine though its a real John collins.

Mine is a juicer. I thought "oh I love juice" then I realized how much fruit you need to make juice and how it's really just better to eat the actual fruit and cleaning it was an absolute nightmare.