Death Stretch

[Handlogten's Heros]

Right and they’ve won 2 games this year.

All roads lead to failure. For every Detroit there is an OKC. Organizationally they have some bigger issues. Troy Weaver needs to go yesterday. They never should have bribed a good coach to come there. Drafting high doesn’t fix everything.

 

[Elizah Huge]

All roads lead to failure. For every Detroit there is an OKC. Organizationally they have some bigger issues. Troy Weaver needs to go yesterday. They never should have bribed a good coach to come there. Drafting high doesn’t fix everything.

OKC would be in the same situation if they didn’t get SGA from the Clippers. They wouldn’t be as bad at Detroit but they wouldn’t be good.

 

[Elizah Huge]

The rest of the team is missing.

How far away from making the playoffs are they do you think? Years wise.

 

[Elizah Huge]

At some point you have to have actual talent and players who are good.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

OKC would be in the same situation if they didn’t get SGA from the Clippers. They wouldn’t be as bad at Detroit but they wouldn’t be good.

Disagree but it’s too hard to judge by removing SGA because he’s such a good player. Part of their tear down yielded SGA and that is a big difference between Detroit and OKC. Detroit started from scratch with no additional assets. OKC sold stuff off and got a huge head start. So did we. OKC just has such strong leadership in the front office and has a great coach. They play so hard they would win more just with effort.

 

[Elizah Huge]

Disagree but it’s too hard to judge by removing SGA because he’s such a good player. Part of their tear down yielded SGA and that is a big difference between Detroit and OKC. Detroit started from scratch with no additional assets. OKC sold stuff off and got a huge head start. So did we. OKC just has such strong leadership in the front office and has a great coach. They play so hard they would win more just with effort.

They’re 15-26 without him the last two seasons.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

They’re 15-26 without him the last two seasons.

I mean part of that is when they were holding him out with others to tank but that’s still a lot closer than Detroit has been and Williams has leveled up and Chet wasn’t playing then. So subtracting SGA from this team would hurt a lot but I’d guess they’d do better than 15-26.

 

[HermanG]

I mean part of that is when they were holding him out with others to tank but that’s still a lot closer than Detroit has been and Williams has leveled up and Chet wasn’t playing then. So subtracting SGA from this team would hurt a lot but I’d guess they’d do better than 15-26.

Its hard to say how good Chet or Williams would look without SGA. Could be better with more touches but could also be worse with more attention drawn to them. But what is for sure is that without him they wouldn't have an MVP caliber guy and would be in the same situation as we are (nice pieces, but missing "that guy").

 

[fishonjazz]

Its hard to say how good Chet or Williams would look without SGA. Could be better with more touches but could also be worse with more attention drawn to them. But what is for sure is that without him they wouldn't have an MVP caliber guy and would be in the same situation as we are (nice pieces, but missing "that guy").

I would argue that tanking isn't simply sucking to get high draft picks and drafting dude
It's also using the assets you get from making a tank worthy team (trading good older players for picks and young players with upside) to acquire pieces (typically young unproven ones).

I'm not familiar with the trade OKC made to get SGA but that trade perhaps happen BECAUSE they were rebuilding/going into a tank? If so then I considering SGA a player they got through the tanking strategy/philosophy.


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[Handlogten's Heros]

Its hard to say how good Chet or Williams would look without SGA. Could be better with more touches but could also be worse with more attention drawn to them. But what is for sure is that without him they wouldn't have an MVP caliber guy and would be in the same situation as we are (nice pieces, but missing "that guy").

Both are better off than Detroit. But OKC would still be ahead of us without SGA. Chet is going to be a top 20 guy very soon.

I just used that comp in part because detroits problems aren’t from drafting in the top 5. Their issues are organization and talent based. They didn’t find anyone talented enough to overcome the stupidity of the front office… that is true but they would be in a much better place with better structure. Drafting high is a part or ingredient of the tanking/team building soup but it is not the whole soup.

 

[Elizah Huge]

I would argue that tanking isn't simply sucking to get high draft picks and drafting dude
It's also using the assets you get from making a tank worthy team (trading good older players for picks and young players with upside) to acquire pieces (typically young unproven ones).

I'm not familiar with the trade OKC made to get SGA but that trade perhaps happen BECAUSE they were rebuilding/going into a tank? If so then I considering SGA a player they got through the tanking strategy/philosophy.


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They got SGA and a ton of picks for trading Paul George. They’re the outlier not the rule.

 

[fishonjazz]

They got SGA and a ton of picks for trading Paul George. They’re the outlier not the rule.

Isn't that kinda what we did? Traded Donovan Mitchell for a ton of picks and Lauri markennan (and Ochai and Sexton.)

To me trading Paul George for that haul was a tank move. I doubt think that was a win now move. So I would include the acquisition of SGA as being a part of the tank strategy/philosophy.

Or maybe you are agreeing with all that and simply saying that they are the exception because most of the time when you trade a star for picks and young prospects you don't get an SGA.

I would agree with that but also add that the hope of a tank is to get really good young talent that you hope turns into a star so for them the tank worked. I also think the tank worked for Philly since they got a league MVP. Now the team building part hasn't worked great to the tune of a title but imo the goal of a tank is to get an Embiid or SGA so it worked imo.

As for our tank, we got Lauri who is pretty ****ing amazing and we have a **** ton of picks (our own and other teams) that night end up being Embiid or LeBron or SGA or whatever or might be traded for a guy like that so I feel our tank is looking good.

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[Tremendous Upside]

SGA wasn't the 2023 SGA back then. He leveled up.

 

[Elizah Huge]

Isn't that kinda what we did? Traded Donovan Mitchell for a ton of picks and Lauri markennan (and Ochai and Sexton.)

To me trading Paul George for that haul was a tank move. I doubt think that was a win now move. So I would include the acquisition of SGA as being a part of the tank strategy/philosophy.

Or maybe you are agreeing with all that and simply saying that they are the exception because most of the time when you trade a star for picks and young prospects you don't get an SGA.

I would agree with that but also add that the hope of a tank is to get really good young talent that you hope turns into a star so for them the tank worked. I also think the tank worked for Philly since they got a league MVP. Now the team building part hasn't worked great to the tune of a title but imo the goal of a tank is to get an Embiid or SGA so it worked imo.

As for our tank, we got Lauri who is pretty ****ing amazing and we have a **** ton of picks (our own and other teams) that night end up being Embiid or LeBron or SGA or whatever or might be traded for a guy like that so I feel our tank is looking good.

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It’s a unique situation because OKC had the Clippers bent over a barrel. Kawhi only goes there if they trade for Paul George and at the time OKC didn’t need to trade him so they got literally everything from them. SGA turning into an MVP candidate is the absolute best case scenario out of that deal.

I’m just saying that OKC is the exception to this because on top of really good moves they have also gotten lucky as well.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

It’s a unique situation because OKC had the Clippers bent over a barrel. Kawhi only goes there if they trade for Paul George and at the time OKC didn’t need to trade him so they got literally everything from them. SGA turning into an MVP candidate is the absolute best case scenario out of that deal.

I’m just saying that OKC is the exception to this because on top of really good moves they have also gotten lucky as well.

I agree with this. I think OKC is the high end of what you'd hope for... I think Detroit/Charlotte is the bottom and the draft has only been part of the issue there. I mean the Bobcats still have Kupchek running ****. WTF?

In the same way that OKC has gotten lucky Detroit has had some tough luck. Most of these teams started with cap and pick deficits due to prior deals that were bad.

If I had to point to a median/highish outcome of a rebuild its NO once they moved AD.

All I am saying is drafting high is rarely a catch all solution... it can be if you land THE DUDE, but it is part of many winning situations. All roads lead to failure and any of the ultimate successes will always be outliers. Building super teams has yielded mixed results and you are dealing with known talented commodities.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

SGA wasn't the 2023 SGA back then. He leveled up.

He was a very good rookie in LA.

 

[Tremendous Upside]

He was a very good rookie in LA.

A nice player, sure. Very far from an MVP candidate.

 

[fishonjazz]

SGA wasn't the 2023 SGA back then. He leveled up.

Exactly. Part of tanking is acquiring young dudes with potential whether through the draft of trade and hoping they develop (level up as you put it) into stars.

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[fishonjazz]

It’s a unique situation because OKC had the Clippers bent over a barrel. Kawhi only goes there if they trade for Paul George and at the time OKC didn’t need to trade him so they got literally everything from them. SGA turning into an MVP candidate is the absolute best case scenario out of that deal.

I’m just saying that OKC is the exception to this because on top of really good moves they have also gotten lucky as well.

Agreed that they are the exception.
Cool thing is that we are closer to their model. We didn't have to trade Mitchell or Gobert. Neither demanded a trade and both were under contract for multiple years.
We got a huge haul for both (2 huge hauls is even better than the 1 huge haul OKC got possibly).
And we got an instant all star.

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[Handlogten's Heros]

One thing on Detroit. They are losing at rates lower than the Hinkie Sixers. The teams built to lose that had no vets and relied on guys like TJ McConnell, Tony Wroten, RoCo to be the best players. Brett Brown got them to play hard and it led to more winning than the Pistons. Their issues run so much deeper than just talent. This Pistons team has so much more talent than that Sixers iteration.