To avoid toxic first year, when you are so close to luxury tax and don't have that much money to pay up front.
Mathews signs offer sheet w/Blazers (5 yrs/34 mil)
- Thread starter calijazz
- Start date
To avoid toxic first year, when you are so close to luxury tax and don't have that much money to pay up front.
Darkwing Duck
Well-Known Member
What? Have you watched what the Jazz do? They run a 1-2-2 as their base offense. The two wings and two bigs are interchangeable on each side.
InGameStrategy
Well-Known Member
Stop with your "just stop." Until you propose a player who is equivalent or better than Matthews, whom the Jazz can legitimately sign for less, Matthews is the best option whose contract was used as a bullying tactic after just one year in the league because Utah didn't negotiate a better deal. The eminent Sir Kicky put up a list of possible alternatives, and none of them seems all too viable--unless they sign for less. I was a Brewer backer for years, and I would still like to see Matthews for the MLE than Brew for half of it because Matthews can somewhat shoot.
And why the hell are you talking about the summer league only? Player evaluation starts long before the trip to Florida. As a matter of practice (not just with Matthews), Utah should offer more than one measly year to players who are halfway coherent and well behaved. You offer an undrafted player the equivalent of a late 1st-round pick's salary, and he'll accept it for a couple of years right out of college.
Matthews was a high-character player with playoff experience and an NBA pedigree who fell through the cracks. Gilbert Arenas' crazy deal after two years with GSW should've already been a lesson to the Jazz that this type of thing would happen. Heck, Portland did this to them last year. Fool me once? Shame on you.
https://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Wesley-Matthews-5501/
My recommendation continues to be the same: make it for more than one year if the pre-signing analysis warrants it. IMHO, Wes's did. IMHO, Augustine's doesn't.
Oh, and BTW, Hopper, this is a Utah Jazz website, where we analyze the actions of players, coaches, GMs, owners, and fans, so don't get your panties all tied up in a bun when someone actually puts forth some analysis, positive or negative.
The Thriller
Well-Known Member
This is what the 10-11 season is all about for the Jazz.
Screw the playoffs, the Lakers, Heat, or Bulls are going to win it anyway.
We're in need of some serious makeovers.
Play the young kids, give them time, don't waste any time or money on guys that won't give us anything in the long term. In other words, KEEP AL HARRINGTON THE HELL OUT OF HERE.
Play the kids, and decide who's worth keeping.
Clear cap space. Try and horde some draft picks.
Play hard this next season.
Work towards building a brighter future. This next season doesn't have to be a complete failure. In fact, the only way it becomes a failure is if Sloan refuses to play the kids, if we lock up money long term with players who we know are going to be overpaid (Wes)or not play a key role in our long term success(Al), and if we don't work to gain assets.
Build a contender in the next few years.
InGameStrategy
Well-Known Member
Maybe so, but Brewer or AK has spent many a game roaming the baseline much more than the SG does. Doesn't seem equivalent to me.
Hopper
Banned
So, you too have heard today's news, eh, S2? Well, aint that special? But what does what we all know today say about what anyone knew a year ago?
By your reasoning, Memo's contract is bad, even if he had the skillz of Kobe, because he got hurt. Of course since it is bad, we "should have" done it differently.
Darkwing Duck
Well-Known Member
Because the Jazz flex offense has tons of options run off of it that is designed to maximize each individual skills. For example, both Brewer and Korver run the same curl play, but Brewer would be best to cut hard off it to the hoop while Korver takes a steeper angle to get an 18 footer or a pass to the screener. Same play, different option to run it.
InGameStrategy
Well-Known Member
Your feeble attempt at a retort is irrelevant because I already spelled out the principle that still applies today: if you sign rookies with any minimal promise for just one year, this is what will happen. Utah knew that they were lean at the 2; they might've wanted to consider a longer deal. The Mo Williams loss should've taught them that; he was here for only one year. Then again, I don't know if signing a player for two years is a significantly better strategy because it gives the player more time to advance into a legit contributor.
Hopper, take a quaalude. Message boards are forums in which we can be virtual GMs or players or coaches. If you personally don't like what I say, than focus on the analysis, not on the ad hominem.
InGameStrategy
Well-Known Member
Sounds like you are knee-deep in a semantics argument. Whether it's a different play or the different option to a play, AK and especially Brewer have tended to find themselves in different roles from WM and CJ. It seems that Kiri puts himself more in the position of a three-point shot more than Brew but less than KK or Catch 'n Jack. That seems like different roles (or different options of the same play) to me. The play might start as a 1-2-2, but it don't end that way.
Hopper
Banned
S2, it's all a matter of judgment. Most contracts to players of undetermined value are NON-GUARANTEED, so that you can cut them at any time, even 1 or 10 days into the season. Because there is no real risk, you can take a "risk" on them. You can't do that with multi-year contracts, so far as I know. The Jazz DID misjudge the value of Matthews. That is now apparent to everyone. But the mere fact that they did misjudge his value does not prove that they "should have known better."
You act as though you are in a position to know what they should have known AT THE TIME. You aint, and you weren't then, so stop the pretense to the contrary.
There have been cases where suicidal people "threaten" police with an unloaded gun, which they refuse to drop while pointing it at, and approaching, the police, until such time as the threatened cops shoot. In every case the victim's Mama claims the cops "murdered" her boy in cold blood BECAUSE the gun was unloaded. You sound just like that Mama.
You act as though you are in a position to know what they should have known AT THE TIME. You aint, and you weren't then, so stop the pretense to the contrary.
There have been cases where suicidal people "threaten" police with an unloaded gun, which they refuse to drop while pointing it at, and approaching, the police, until such time as the threatened cops shoot. In every case the victim's Mama claims the cops "murdered" her boy in cold blood BECAUSE the gun was unloaded. You sound just like that Mama.
So you think that Matthews' 6.2ppg and 35% FG in the summer league and 6.5ppg and 43% FG in preseason should have alerted the Jazz that they should lock this guy up for more than one year? Had Korver and Miles been healthy, Matthews would likely have been cut, but you think the Jazz should have signed him for two years. Amazing.
InGameStrategy
Well-Known Member
Unfortunately we can't go back in time and test what we would have thought then. But signing rookie FAs usually takes place with more information than choosing NBA draftees because the rookie FAs have usually played some league ball or might have worked out more, even after the draft took place. And my contention here is that some players should be signed for more time. Should an undersized PG such as Dee Brown be given more than a year guaranteed? Probably not--and he wasn't. Kudos to the Jazz. (See? I can praise, not only criticize. Not sure why are acting like such an apologist.) Should James Augustine get more than a year guaranteed? Definitely not. Should Matthews have been signed to two years guaranteed, based on the information available at the time? I say yes, just like Gilbert Arenas was (not that WM= GA). I still don't know why you're so hypersensitive to such analyses.
Hopper
Banned
I have no problem with you stating your speculative opinion, or your strictly personal preferences, S2, that aint the problem. I can say I like vanilla ice cream better than chocolate, and you can say the opposite, again, no prob.
I don't like the pretense than you are somehow in a better position (better informed, better judgment) to decide these things than the experts who are intimately acquainted with the facts and who have far greater experience and expertise than you.
Your critiques of Sloan are representative. You always act as if, and even claim, at least implicitly, you know more or less exactly what Sloan, his coaching staff, KOC and the Millers know--what Sloan says to his players, all the details of every player's mental and physical health, exactly how they have performed in practice, etc., when you don't. You simply take on all the mannerisms of an insufferable bore with such pretenses.
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Jazz4ever
Well-Known Member
That is alot of money for Matthews, about in line with what Korver, Miller, and Morrow are getting. Sloan loves him though, and the Jazz have exceptions up the wazoo, so see them matching.
EDIT: Whoa I see it is actually 5/34 not 5/25 that is quite insane for Portland to do with their depth. There is no way KOC in his right mind matches this.
EDIT: Whoa I see it is actually 5/34 not 5/25 that is quite insane for Portland to do with their depth. There is no way KOC in his right mind matches this.
candrew
Well-Known Member
KOC will do his ultra-conservative best in a non-conservative business to use the TPE's. He'll get nowhere and some time over the next 7 days Greg Miller (like most mediocrities when backed against the wall) will panic and say "well, gee guys we need to do something" and instruct KOC to match the Blazers offer sheet.
That's basically it - Matthews is staying.
That's basically it - Matthews is staying.
Gyp Rosetti
Banned
I didn't feel like reading every single post in this thread but from what I have read, I've gathered this. The offer was 5 years, 33M. That's 6.6M per. Wow, like almost everyone else on here I have to agree. Let him walk. To play devil's advocate though, consider this about his game. While slightly undersized, he is still a very good defender. Not average defender. He's a very good on the ball defender. That's huge in and of itself. Then, offensively, he's not great but for our fifth option, he's solid. He shot 48% from the floor which is excellent for a guard, 38% from three which is about average, 83% from the line, and put up some okay stats in other areas. I personally think we'll match. I don't think we should. However, if we don't, who else is out there? We'd have to sign some wing, no?
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Gyp Rosetti
Banned
I can totally live with Miles starting at the 2 and AK at the 3 with Hayward off the bench. However, that leaves us very thin especially with Mr. Glass being one of those three rotation guys. So who else is out there who can fill a similar role as Matthews but perhaps from the bench? Roger Mason maybe? Would Mason be worth 3 years, 9M?
Also, the guy seems to be a bit of a cancer but what kind of feelers is Josh Howard getting around the league I wonder. Matt Barnes? And, <swallow>, Ronnie Brewer?
Also, the guy seems to be a bit of a cancer but what kind of feelers is Josh Howard getting around the league I wonder. Matt Barnes? And, <swallow>, Ronnie Brewer?
memo is money
Active Member
So what is your point? Wes is more important than all of these guys? Do not be stupid. Stop posting on comments before reading the background that lead to that comment. We were talking about how HEAVY the contract of Wes is + how overrated this "STARTER" label. Everybody was complaining about certain deficiencies of Ronnie Brew. Did not he start for the Jazz 2-3 years? We can give nearly every GSW player as an example of how starting for an NBA team does not mean much. What's wrong with this statement?
By the way, First and foremost, Memo has had a CAREER and been among top centers. Millsap is up and coming, PROVED that he belongs to this league, and is TALENTED. Do you say that Wes should be signed because Memo is aging, Millsap is undersized? WTF?
If you say that all of these three players have deficiencies in their games, Wes, TOO, have some weaknesses. There should be a reason why he was not drafted, right? He is very good, tough player but NO WAY does he deserve such a contract. That's my point.
