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Welcome to Election Day 2024,

We need no longer look at the general population of Germany before WWII with a side-eye glance, as now we have been through it as well.
The population of Germany built concentration camps for Jews, killed 6 million of them, started a world war to kill tens of millions more, and turned humans into desk lamps. We elected a candidate you disagreed with, and you see that as morally equivalent.
 
The population of Germany built concentration camps for Jews, killed 6 million of them, started a world war to kill tens of millions more, and turned humans into desk lamps. We elected a candidate you disagreed with, and you see that as morally equivalent.
You're being so ****ing obtuse.

Hitler didn't do any of that before he got elected. It didn't all happen in one day.

I guess if someone went back in time and killed Hitler before he did any of that your conclusion would be that Hitler was just a good guy who really cared about his nation and the assassin was wrong for killing someone who hadn't yet done anything wrong.
 
Them getting it wrong is par for the course, so no need to ever listen to them, but definitely listen to the armchair economists who always get it right. But absolutely listen to the professionals when they agree with certain armchair economists since the armchair guys can see right through everything the pros get wrong. Right?
You’re both talking past me and full of hubris so this is pointless. You started in with arm chair economist doom posting so I thought I’d add something that might take the edge off. I see that was a mistake. Hope you have a great day!
 
Hitler didn't do any of that before he got elected. It didn't all happen in one day.
Log's comments was directed at the German people before WWII. The Kristallnacht pogroms and the concentration camps all came before WWII. Dachau was opened in 1933. There was a lot of blood on the hands of the German people before they started WWII, and it is ridiculous to compare those heinous acts to voting for someone Log doesn't like.

Log didn't even mention Hitler. His condemnation was for the German people of 1933-1939, and of Americans of November 2024 who he paints as morally equal.
 
You’re both talking past me and full of hubris so this is pointless. You started in with arm chair economist doom posting so I thought I’d add something that might take the edge off. I see that was a mistake. Hope you have a great day!
We were going off the sources fish posted generally. Do you have better sources that contradict that and are more reliable? Can you show they are more reliable? I read as much as I can and will welcome a different view. Do you consider differing views? Or just disregard what you disagree with?
 
If this has shown the world anything it is how a fascist and propagandist can take over the minds of the populace and get themselves installed into positions of power. We need no longer look at the general population of Germany before WWII with a side-eye glance, as now we have been through it as well. No more need we ask "how could they ever support someone like that?" when that is exactly what we have done. Sad event, to be sure. We can only hope he doesn't try to enact every fascist thing he has promised. Or at least, we do not let him succeed. But he has made us the laughing stock of the developed world, as we allowed a convicted felon and rapist to be able to pardon himself so we basically show that our justice system is just for show and only holds the poor and weak to account. The rich and powerful need never fear. We are very nearly at the tipping point of being a full-on corporatocracy, and could easily see fascist ideas enacted as well. Dark day for America, no doubt.

It's so ****ing disturbing to think of how many Americans have laid their life on the line to form this great country and we just elected for the second time a guy who loves to give blowjobs to microphones in front of thousands.
 
The population of Germany built concentration camps for Jews, killed 6 million of them, started a world war to kill tens of millions more, and turned humans into desk lamps. We elected a candidate you disagreed with, and you see that as morally equivalent.

No the population of Germany did not do those things, people the equivalent of Trump and his cult members did those things. The same kind of people who attack Capitols when their cult leader tells them to.
 
We were going off the sources fish posted generally. Do you have better sources that contradict that and are more reliable? Can you show they are more reliable? I read as much as I can and will welcome a different view. Do you consider differing views? Or just disregard what you disagree with?
Contradict what? There’s been no discussion here, hence no disagreement. Those links were tangential, typical election cycle political commentary. Did I miss them contradicting imports roughly 14% of GDP? Smoot-Hawley dragging US through depression for longer than Europe? An accounting definition of the current account? The gutting of small town USA (more precisely the highly accelerated decimation of US manufacturing starting with China admittance into WTO)? Reduced lifetime incomes and increased welfare loads? What exactly is it that disagreed with anything I wrote, cuz that’s pretty much standard accepted knowledge by trade economists. The only portion I saw that had any relevance was the prediction that Trump policies would result in lower growth vs Harris, which agrees with my point that tariffs aren’t going to cause economic collapse.

The part about economists having a history of getting things wrong was not a recommendation to ignore them or cherry-pick. It was that citing one or another as some gotcha be all end all proof is nonsense. It’s even ironic in the tariffs discussion because they’re using the same anti-tariffs rhetoric today (but softened up a lot) that they used with religious fervor back in the Bill Clintondays, yet now they’re telling us they were wrong about much then (as usual, did not account for unanticipated factors). But we are to believe and not question their gospel now? I cited Krugman’s article because he laid the theoretical foundation and was the ring leader of the free trade movement.

The other irony here is fish has been ranting for years about the declining middle class and wealth inequality. Globalization has been one cause according to many, yet he is apparently all for it.
 
November 7, 2024 (Thursday)

Today the Trump family posed for a post-election photo. Missing from the group was former first lady Melania Trump. Joining the family was billionaire Elon Musk, who supported Trump’s campaign both through his ownership of X, formerly Twitter, and then with $132 million in cash and with apparent giveaways to get voters to give the campaign personal information.

As an immigrant from South Africa, Musk is barred from the presidency himself by the U.S. Constitution, which requires that a president be born in the U.S. (out of the Framers’ concern that a foreign country could put a puppet in the presidency). But he is now very close to Trump and stands to gain significantly from a Trump presidency, both through deregulation and government contracts, and through Trump’s planned tariffs on Chinese imports that will enable Musk to monopolize the electric vehicle market in the U.S. Musk also would like a victory in the culture wars; he is strongly opposed to transgender rights.

After the election results came out, Musk posted on X, “Novus Ordo Seclorum,” Latin for “New World Order.”

At Trump’s election party, Trump said: “We have a new star: Elon. He is an amazing guy. We were sitting together tonight—you know he spent two weeks in Philadelphia and different parts of Pennsylvania campaigning? He's a character, he's a special guy. He's a super-genius, and we have to protect our geniuses, we don't have that many of them. We have to protect our super-geniuses.”

Trump’s new closeness with Musk presents an issue for the Republican Party. The president-elect is 78 and has shown signs of mental and physical deterioration, making it possible that someone will need to take his place at some point in the next four years.

The vice president–elect, current Ohio senator J.D. Vance, who is backed by billionaire Peter Thiel, is constitutionally the next in line for the presidency, but neither Musk nor Vance has Trump’s popular support, making it unclear who will take over the leadership of the party if such a takeover is necessary. Whether either can command Trump’s supporters is also unclear.

What is clear is that neither of them has much experience in elected office. Vance was elected senator just two years ago, and Musk comes from the business world.

There is another, major problem for the party, as well: Trump won the election in part by promising everything to everyone, but the actual policies of the MAGA party are unpopular, even with many Republican voters.

Notably, Trump has said he will appoint Musk to head a new government efficiency commission, and Musk has vowed to cut “at least $2 trillion” from the federal budget. Such cuts would decimate government services, including food programs and Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid. Supplemental nutrition programs disproportionately benefit rural areas, and Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid are used much more heavily in counties that support Trump than those that don’t.

That will be a hard circle to square.

So will Trump’s promise to lower consumer costs while also putting tariffs of 10% to 20% on all foreign imports and of 60% on imports from China. Tariffs are borne by consumers, so by definition they will drive prices up. These two promises cannot be reconciled.

Trump has promised mass deportations, and much of his base is fervently behind them. The Republican National Committee even had signs saying “MASS DEPORTATION NOW” made up for attendees to wave at the party’s convention.

Priscilla Alvarez and Alayna Treene of CNN reported today that Trump’s allies have been preparing for mass detentions and deportations of undocumented immigrants, and the stock prices of private prison companies GEO Group and CoreCivic have soared since Trump’s election. Steven T. Dennis of Bloomberg reported that on an earnings call today, GEO chief executive officer Brian Evans told investors that filling currently empty beds could bring in $400 million a year and that the company can scale up its current surveillance, monitoring, and transportation programs to handle millions of immigrants. “This is to us an unprecedented opportunity,” he said.

But deporting up to 20 million people will be a logistical nightmare and is projected to cost from $88 billion to $315 billion a year. At the same time, much of the U.S. economy depends on undocumented immigrants, and Republican businessmen will certainly object to losing their workers.

Tom Homan, who served as acting director of Immigration and Customs Enforcement under Trump in his first term, backed away from some of the extremes of Trump’s immigration policy when he told CBS last month: “It’s not gonna be—a mass sweep of neighborhoods. It’s not gonna be building concentration camps. I’ve read it all. It’s ridiculous…. They’ll be targeted arrests. We’ll know who we’re going to arrest, where we’re most likely to find ‘em based on numerous, you know, investigative processes.”

Meanwhile, Democratic state lawmakers have been preparing for a potential Trump administration for more than a year, and some are putting down public markers that they will not cooperate with the extreme policies of the Trump administration.

Trump vowed to begin his mass deportation plan in Aurora, Colorado, where he maintained—contrary to the statements of local Republican officials—that Venezuelan gangs had taken over the city. Aurora is a suburb of Denver, and yesterday the mayor of Denver, Mike Johnston, told a reporter he would not cooperate with requests that are “immoral or unethical or unfair.”

California governor Gavin Newsom called an emergency session of the California state legislature to convene on December 2, “to help bolster our legal resources and protect our state against any unlawful actions by the incoming Trump Administration.” It will focus on funding lawsuits against any actions that impact civil liberties, reproductive rights, protection for immigrants, and climate initiatives. Newsom said the California lawmakers “will seek to work with the incoming president—but let there be no mistake, we intend to stand with states across our nation to defend our Constitution and uphold the rule of law.”

California has the fifth largest economy in the world, and its population of 39 million people is more than four times the 9.59 million people in Hungary, the country from which MAGA Republicans are taking much of their ideological vision.

Illinois governor J.B. Pritzker, who has been called a “happy warrior,” held a press conference today, telling reporters that he will continue working to keep Illinois “a place of stability and competent governance” and vowing to protect the people of his state no matter what the new administration does. “To anyone who intends to come take away the freedom and opportunity and dignity of Illinoisans: I would remind you that a happy warrior is still a warrior,” he said. “You come for my people, you come through me.”

Trump has made it clear he intends to have a say in the decisions of the Federal Reserve, which manages interest rates, and during his first term he frequently attacked Fed chair Jerome Powell, whom he appointed, for not lowering rates to boost the economy. Trump’s advisors have suggested the president can gain power over the nation’s finances by removing members of the Fed in his next term.

Today, when reporters asked Powell if he would resign before Trump takes office, he said no. When asked if Trump could fire or demote him or the other Fed governors, Powell was firm: “Not permitted under the law.”

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Notably, Trump has said he will appoint Musk to head a new government efficiency commission, and Musk has vowed to cut “at least $2 trillion” from the federal budget. Such cuts would decimate government services, including food programs and Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid. Supplemental nutrition programs disproportionately benefit rural areas, and Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid are used much more heavily in counties that support Trump than those that don’t.

That will be a hard circle to square.
Not at all. Musk isn't going to cut the money going to the people. He's going to cut the number of administrators involved in getting people money and highly automate the process so it works faster. He's going to do to the federal government what he did with Twitter. He's going to fire 80% of the staff, while the end users will still get the same number of tweets and service up-time as they did before.

How Elon Musk fired Twitter staff and broke nothing​

 
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No the population of Germany did not do those things
Oh yes they did. Gina Carano got fired for pointing that out.

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Oh yes they did. Gina Carano got fired for pointing that out.

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Not true. Just as in America today Germany had its Nazi sympathizers as we have our Trump sympathizers but a large segment of Germans were horrified by what was happening. My grandmother who owned a store provided for and protected her jewish friends in the small village my dad was born and raised in. My grandfather was against Hitler yet he was forced to go to war and died in the battle for Stalingrad in 1943. Germans simply had no choice but to toe the Nazi line for fear of being outed by their neighbors, but a large segment of German society recognized who Hitler was from very early on.
 
Nice work Utah, not apart of the Red Wave, I see why we voted how we did in that poll.

View: https://x.com/electiontime_/status/1854563724683886608?s=46&t=BMMZjW7vq0_zwnmLDjNTgQ

I love how all the comments under that on Twitter are just about red vs blue and how blue is just plain evil so red always needs to win regardless of any discussion of policy. The worst thing in the world is to see a state change from red to blue. The horror!!

How far are we from Rwanda? Or just the Rick and Morty episode with the spiral and point nipple people all killing each other. Just voting the wrong color is enough to be ostracized. Trump saw to that division. We are the most divided we've ever been and no way that gets better in the next 4 years as they try to establish Gilead.
 
Not true. ... fear of being outed by their neighbors
I'm thinking you just falsified your own narrative.

I never said it was 100% of all German people, that all Germans were in lockstep. Believing it was only the failed artist with the narrow moustache or those dressed in Hugo Boss uniforms is a myth of convivence. The highest profile atrocities may have been carried out by the party but it was of the people. The actual violence visited on neighbors by neighbors should not be downplayed. It should be remembered for what it was.
 
November 7, 2024 (Thursday)

Today the Trump family posed for a post-election photo. Missing from the group was former first lady Melania Trump. Joining the family was billionaire Elon Musk, who supported Trump’s campaign both through his ownership of X, formerly Twitter, and then with $132 million in cash and with apparent giveaways to get voters to give the campaign personal information.

As an immigrant from South Africa, Musk is barred from the presidency himself by the U.S. Constitution, which requires that a president be born in the U.S. (out of the Framers’ concern that a foreign country could put a puppet in the presidency). But he is now very close to Trump and stands to gain significantly from a Trump presidency, both through deregulation and government contracts, and through Trump’s planned tariffs on Chinese imports that will enable Musk to monopolize the electric vehicle market in the U.S. Musk also would like a victory in the culture wars; he is strongly opposed to transgender rights.

After the election results came out, Musk posted on X, “Novus Ordo Seclorum,” Latin for “New World Order.”

At Trump’s election party, Trump said: “We have a new star: Elon. He is an amazing guy. We were sitting together tonight—you know he spent two weeks in Philadelphia and different parts of Pennsylvania campaigning? He's a character, he's a special guy. He's a super-genius, and we have to protect our geniuses, we don't have that many of them. We have to protect our super-geniuses.”

Trump’s new closeness with Musk presents an issue for the Republican Party. The president-elect is 78 and has shown signs of mental and physical deterioration, making it possible that someone will need to take his place at some point in the next four years.

The vice president–elect, current Ohio senator J.D. Vance, who is backed by billionaire Peter Thiel, is constitutionally the next in line for the presidency, but neither Musk nor Vance has Trump’s popular support, making it unclear who will take over the leadership of the party if such a takeover is necessary. Whether either can command Trump’s supporters is also unclear.

What is clear is that neither of them has much experience in elected office. Vance was elected senator just two years ago, and Musk comes from the business world.

There is another, major problem for the party, as well: Trump won the election in part by promising everything to everyone, but the actual policies of the MAGA party are unpopular, even with many Republican voters.

Notably, Trump has said he will appoint Musk to head a new government efficiency commission, and Musk has vowed to cut “at least $2 trillion” from the federal budget. Such cuts would decimate government services, including food programs and Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid. Supplemental nutrition programs disproportionately benefit rural areas, and Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid are used much more heavily in counties that support Trump than those that don’t.

That will be a hard circle to square.

So will Trump’s promise to lower consumer costs while also putting tariffs of 10% to 20% on all foreign imports and of 60% on imports from China. Tariffs are borne by consumers, so by definition they will drive prices up. These two promises cannot be reconciled.

Trump has promised mass deportations, and much of his base is fervently behind them. The Republican National Committee even had signs saying “MASS DEPORTATION NOW” made up for attendees to wave at the party’s convention.

Priscilla Alvarez and Alayna Treene of CNN reported today that Trump’s allies have been preparing for mass detentions and deportations of undocumented immigrants, and the stock prices of private prison companies GEO Group and CoreCivic have soared since Trump’s election. Steven T. Dennis of Bloomberg reported that on an earnings call today, GEO chief executive officer Brian Evans told investors that filling currently empty beds could bring in $400 million a year and that the company can scale up its current surveillance, monitoring, and transportation programs to handle millions of immigrants. “This is to us an unprecedented opportunity,” he said.

But deporting up to 20 million people will be a logistical nightmare and is projected to cost from $88 billion to $315 billion a year. At the same time, much of the U.S. economy depends on undocumented immigrants, and Republican businessmen will certainly object to losing their workers.

Tom Homan, who served as acting director of Immigration and Customs Enforcement under Trump in his first term, backed away from some of the extremes of Trump’s immigration policy when he told CBS last month: “It’s not gonna be—a mass sweep of neighborhoods. It’s not gonna be building concentration camps. I’ve read it all. It’s ridiculous…. They’ll be targeted arrests. We’ll know who we’re going to arrest, where we’re most likely to find ‘em based on numerous, you know, investigative processes.”

Meanwhile, Democratic state lawmakers have been preparing for a potential Trump administration for more than a year, and some are putting down public markers that they will not cooperate with the extreme policies of the Trump administration.

Trump vowed to begin his mass deportation plan in Aurora, Colorado, where he maintained—contrary to the statements of local Republican officials—that Venezuelan gangs had taken over the city. Aurora is a suburb of Denver, and yesterday the mayor of Denver, Mike Johnston, told a reporter he would not cooperate with requests that are “immoral or unethical or unfair.”

California governor Gavin Newsom called an emergency session of the California state legislature to convene on December 2, “to help bolster our legal resources and protect our state against any unlawful actions by the incoming Trump Administration.” It will focus on funding lawsuits against any actions that impact civil liberties, reproductive rights, protection for immigrants, and climate initiatives. Newsom said the California lawmakers “will seek to work with the incoming president—but let there be no mistake, we intend to stand with states across our nation to defend our Constitution and uphold the rule of law.”

California has the fifth largest economy in the world, and its population of 39 million people is more than four times the 9.59 million people in Hungary, the country from which MAGA Republicans are taking much of their ideological vision.

Illinois governor J.B. Pritzker, who has been called a “happy warrior,” held a press conference today, telling reporters that he will continue working to keep Illinois “a place of stability and competent governance” and vowing to protect the people of his state no matter what the new administration does. “To anyone who intends to come take away the freedom and opportunity and dignity of Illinoisans: I would remind you that a happy warrior is still a warrior,” he said. “You come for my people, you come through me.”

Trump has made it clear he intends to have a say in the decisions of the Federal Reserve, which manages interest rates, and during his first term he frequently attacked Fed chair Jerome Powell, whom he appointed, for not lowering rates to boost the economy. Trump’s advisors have suggested the president can gain power over the nation’s finances by removing members of the Fed in his next term.

Today, when reporters asked Powell if he would resign before Trump takes office, he said no. When asked if Trump could fire or demote him or the other Fed governors, Powell was firm: “Not permitted under the law.”

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Both glad to see the states gearing up to defy Trump, and extremely sad it had to come to this. What a disgrace for our country.
 
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