A story about prayer

[One Brow]

I have no doubt that the parents staying calm plays a huge part in these situations, but I KNOW WITHOUT A DOUBT that prayer worked. It's just that simple for me.

Because, it couldn't be that, at that particular time, your presence was more of a comfort than your wife's presence? Or, even that seeing both parents calm was more reassuring than seeing one parent calm? Or they just tired themselves out? No, must be God, taking time off from not feeding hungry kids in Africa to make sure yours took a nap.

 

[One Brow]

In one story you have parents that live a good lifestyle (making assumptions) and are spending time as a family.

Not sure what flavor your religion is, but in many forms of Christianity, all works are inherently sinful, and there is no such thing as living a good life. Do you believe people can be genuinely good?

 

[One Brow]

Race, Color, Creed, Sexual Orientation, whether or not you seriously watch The Bachelor shows.

Which of those, outside of creed, try to post their superiority in public schools? Which of them, outside of creed, condemn people not in the group to an inferior enternity of some sort? Which of them, outside of creed and watching The Bachelor, is based on how you think, as opposed to who you are?

 

[One Brow]

But I never performed the rituals atheists are so fond of.

I thought debating religion in internet forums was an atheist ritual. I don't know of any others.

 

[One Brow]

Well, of course someone would bring this up, and I thought they might. The only reason I brought it up is because it's more than a reasonable response, and gives a representation of friends and family from different parts of the country. The term "Gay" is nowhere near the term "Nìgger", and therefore isn't a valid point.

Absolutely. One word has a history of being used as a specific tool of oppression. However, you're just saying that things are bad because they are the sorts of things that gay people would like, and thus bad by their association to gay people. How could that possibly be construed as offensive?

 

[Dr. Jones]

Not sure what flavor your religion is, but in many forms of Christianity, all works are inherently sinful, and there is no such thing as living a good life. Do you believe people can be genuinely good?

I'm evangelical.

I view works (meaning as defined by those 'good' things you do in the name of God) as nothing more than evidence of faith. They do not add up/accumulate into something more for me than the next guy, in the afterlife. Simply put, if one truly believes their faith, truly believes in a loving God, those thoughts and feelings will assuredly manifest in a positive light for those around you. Not all the time, mind you ..

I'm not sure what you mean by all works are inherently sinful. The bible speak of fruits of the spirit (love, kindness, patience, etc) and, as you well know, it can sometimes be 'work' to display these attributes, lol.

I believe we are all sinners by biblical definition. I believe we were born with sin (too long to explain here). So, I believe we must overcome certain traits/tendencies to attempt a 'goodness' but we all fall short of truly reaching it. Only through Jesus and His grace are we washed of our transgressions.

Now, I wrote that knowing you do not believe the same way, but answered your questions regardless .. as I took them as sincere.

 

[The Black Swordsman]

The comparison between gay and blacks is similar in some aspects but different in many.

Gay people have the right to marry women just like everyone else!

But really the main difference is that gay people can hide their identity while blacks can't. For example job interviews and such.

 

[One Brow]

I'm not sure what you mean by all works are inherently sinful. The bible speak of fruits of the spirit (love, kindness, patience, etc) and, as you well know, it can sometimes be 'work' to display these attributes, lol.

I don't recall the quote off-hand, but isn't theere something about all our works being as dirty rags?

At any rate, I don't find the manisfestations from religious beliefs to show a different character than those of atheists. However, that's my own confirmation bias at work, and no better a source than any other indiviedual's experience.

Thank you for taking my questions as sincere. Do you see how they contrast with your notion that catracho is probably leading "a good life"?

 

[Dr. Jones]

^^^ Well yet another epiphany for me in this thread .. another real paradigm shift. Until 2 minutes ago, I thought blacks and gays were the same thing, completely alike.

Thanks for saving me, I would have been totally embarrassed had I quite innocently started calling you The Gay Swordsmen.

 

[One Brow]

Gay people have the right to marry women just like everyone else!

But really the main difference is that gay people can hide their identity while blacks can't. For example job interviews and such.

Thank you for confieming that black people have the right to marry other black people, and white people have the right to marry other white people, so you think there is nothing wrong with laws against inte4rracial marriages.

On the off chance you did not mean that, perhaps yo should find a better argument.

I won't even bother to discuss the issue of passing. Too far off topic.

 

[Dr. Jones]

I don't recall the quote off-hand, but isn't theere something about all our works being as dirty rags?

At any rate, I don't find the manisfestations from religious beliefs to show a different character than those of atheists. However, that's my own confirmation bias at work, and no better a source than any other indiviedual's experience.

Thank you for taking my questions as sincere. Do you see how they contrast with your notion that catracho is probably leading "a good life"?

The 'dirty rags' referrence is speaking that our works without God are but dirty rags .. worthless .. as works alone do not suffice.

Being Christian far from gives one exclusive license to do good. So I completely agree that being atheist or being a believer can manifest a similar life of caring for others and an overall lifestyle that, by Christian standards, is a 'good' one. I believe the key difference is that most Christians give the glory to God while most atheists give it to self.

Re: your question involving Catratcho. I think you're over-thinking 'leading a good life' and what definition you may be using, Brow. I think most people (Christian or not) are self-aware of their own inherent tendencies to do things they feel would be wrong (as defined by God, your wife, the FBI, etc). When a Christian opts to not act on those impulses, we call that living right. Whereby an atheist calls it good judgement. It's all quite similar really .. the main difference is simply recognizing a maker vs. the opinion that a maker doesn't exist.

 

[One Brow]

When a Christian opts to not act on those impulses, we call that living right. Whereby an atheist calls it good judgement.

Most atheists I know and read would also call it living right. Outside of that, a nice response, thank you.

 

[Zombie]

I just don't get why people have such animosity towards something. Maybe it's because if they make something look evil or bad and beat at it, it may take away from feelings that they once had? Don't know.

Or maybe *gasp!* they just don't agree with you. Anyway I don't see much animosity here. Differences of opinion maybe but that's about it.

 

[bigb]

Because, it couldn't be that, at that particular time, your presence was more of a comfort than your wife's presence? Or, even that seeing both parents calm was more reassuring than seeing one parent calm? Or they just tired themselves out? No, must be God, taking time off from not feeding hungry kids in Africa to make sure yours took a nap.

I'm sure all of the things you listed played a part in it as well. I am also sure the prayer was answered. That's the great thing about how I view God. He uses the everyday things to His advantage. Why not take a crying kid with parents who calmly pray and help them go to sleep?

By the way, I would much rather discuss this with you than with the others who have piped in on this since you choose not to tear down my beliefs to try and prove yours.

 

[Siro]

I'm sure all of the things you listed played a part in it as well. I am also sure the prayer was answered. That's the great thing about how I view God. He uses the everyday things to His advantage. Why not take a crying kid with parents who calmly pray and help them go to sleep?

By the way, I would much rather discuss this with you than with the others who have piped in on this since you choose not to tear down my beliefs to try and prove yours.

My response to you was pretty much identical. Down to the babies in Africa bit. I don't understand why mine was tearing you down while his is an open minded discussion.

 

[Dr. Jones]

That's the funny thing about typical debates I see between believers and non-believers. Most of the time I see where each attempts to prove how different they are from one another. My reality is that we're not so different .. and either one may very well be right.

If I were a non-believer, I'd probably live my life largely the same way I do now. Maybe praying with my kids and their calming down is God, maybe it's me, maybe it's just science ..

Either way, I chose God. I am a true believer and have deep faith that it's all very real. As I've said before, I don't believe my faith makes me better than anyone else, not even a little bit. Only real difference between me and my atheist friends is that I give myself no credit for the good things in my life .. and they tend to give themselves all the credit. And I get that.

 

[bigb]

You're not getting it. I don't attack religion to hurt other people's feelings. I do it because I think religion is a bad thing. I don't mean bad for me. I mean bad for EVERYONE. Even those who say the only reason they don't go around killing people is their faith. It's bad for those people too. You act like the random categories you chose to respect are somehow morally superior. But how so? I can justify my position on any grounds you wish. Can you justify yours? There was an article on BBC about a rise if child sacrifice in Africa due to re-emergence of old faiths that promise compensation for the sacrifice. Would you have posted a comment complaining about the off-limit subject? Would you have justified those actions as moral? Or is that faith perfectly fine to criticize because you don't interact with any of the adherents.

I am perfectly comfortable with my morality because it stems from reasons I understand and support. I don't struggle with moral issues because if I turn out to be wrong about something, I have no problem changing my mind.

Oh, and I never burnt any magic underwear or anything like that. I've been in numerous heated arguments with all kinds of people. But I never performed the rituals atheists are so fond of.

Maybe it's because of this comment, posted by you in this very thread? You admit to attacking religion. Or maybe it's because even over the Internet I detect a complete and total disdain from you while I don't get that at all from One Brow? But then again, maybe it's just me.

 

[bigb]

^That was to answer SiroMar's question to me. I don't know how to multiway ore with tapatalk.

 

[bigb]

That was supposed to say multi-quote. Apparently I don't know how to proofread my posts either.

 

[One Brow]

My response to you was pretty much identical. Down to the babies in Africa bit. I don't understand why mine was tearing you down while his is an open minded discussion.

Partly due to history, I guess, in addition to other things catracho said. While I don't think highly of religious beliefs, I also don't think those who hold them are stupid, gullible, etc., at least not more so than I. That's why I didn't respond to colton's post that finding his part may or may not have been the result of prayer, but he chose to believe it was. That's as strong a point as I'm likely to make on the topic. I would object if he had said it was definitely the result of prayer.

Another thing is that I have said in the past the world would not be better off without religion. Faithful, fanatical followers would just find non-religius things to faithfully follow fanatically. Wars would still arise. People would still hate. Religion is like Silly Putty; it takes the shape and reflects the picture of whatever the holder does with it.