Gun Control

[Gameface]

significantly improved medical care, particularly in the ER and by first responders

the AMA has done significant research on this, look it up

also, gun sales do not necessarily equate to gun usage

Very true, especially as gun hording seems to be all the rage within the gun-loving community these days. More guns but owned by fewer people. These gun hoarders also tend to be experienced with firearms and familiar with standard safety practices.

This seems like a good place to list the "4 rules" as I am an advocate of their practice.
Taken from some random website that was towards the top of the page when I used google.

The Four Basic Principles of Safe Gun Handling

To help ensure safe practices at home and on the range, make these gun handling principles your own, and they will become natural habits whenever you handle a firearm. The ADTA observes and enforces these principles at all ADTA events, from demonstrations to dry practice events to live fire events, and we're glad to help new shooters get started.

1. Treat every firearm as if it's loaded.

Even if you're absolutely certain a gun is unloaded, still follow these rules for safe gun handling. You want these rules to be natural habits; holding yourself to them each and every time helps make them so.

2. Never point a firearm at anything you are not willing to destroy.

Accept the mindset to always keep your gun pointed in a direction that would safely stop the bullet should it discharge. At an ADTA event, if you're not on the firing line, your gun should stay holstered muzzle-down, cased, or locked open and pointing down and away from people. If you're on the firing line, your gun should stay pointed downrange, at the bullet trap backstop at the end of the range. If you will be cleaning or handling your unloaded gun at home, find a safe direction ahead of time -- bullets penetrate floors, ceiling, windows, and walls. Masonry, a full bookcase, a full freezer, downward (if you're on the ground floor), or even a five gallon bucket of sand may be good options.

3. Always be sure of your target and what is beyond it.

You are responsible for the entire path of every bullet you fire from your gun. If you hit your intended target, the bullet may still continue through. ADTA live-fire events are conducted at locations with designated bullet trap backstops or berms to help contain rounds to the intended range area; you are responsible for only aiming in directions where you can be assured the bullet will be safely stopped.

4. Keep your finger off the trigger until you are on target and ready to fire.

At ADTA events, when you're holding a gun but not shooting, you'll hear us ask you to "index" your trigger finger. This means to keep your trigger finger straight, and to raise it up to rest flat alongside the body of your gun. Whenever you are not on target and ready to fire, your trigger finger should always be outside the trigger guard and resting straight and flat alongside the body of your gun.

 

[RJF]

That is also focusing on the deaths part of it and not the injuries part. Regardless of the level of medical care, once you are injured you're injured.

But chicks dig scars...

 

[One Brow]

some of your replys make me question if you are mentatlly there sometimes... i dont thin you understood what salty was refering to. was there anachry breaking out?... um not i dont think so

So, how large of a disaster does it take for anarchy to break out, and what makes you think an AR-15 will fare better than a revolver in such a scenario?

 

[One Brow]

No I'm talking about taking aimed shots at a mob attacking you or trying to loot your property. There are instances where they may very well coordinate their attacks, like, if you have a bunch of supplies in the aftermath of a natural disaster in which some people fear starving to death.

Say, as in Hurricane Katrina? Any evidence that those with AR-15s did better in protecting their property than those with ordinary pistols, revolvers, etc.? How big of a disaster does it take for this effect to show?

The guy in Sandy Hook was killing small children. He didn't need the AR-15, nor did it result in him killing more than he could have with pistols. He was shooting small children at close range. What gun regulation would you like to impose to make that event less deadly and tragic?

Being able to shoot fewer bullets in a given time-span means fewer people get shot, right?

 

[One Brow]

In Cali, gun sales nearly double yet injuries and deaths from guns drop...

https://www.sacbee.com/2012/12/27/5079151/california-gun-sales-increase.html

Violent crime has been dropping across the country, at about the same rate, regardless of local gun laws.

 

[One Brow]

Hmm..... so "Gun Control Advocates", do you have an explanation for this??

Why do I need to explain two unconnected phenomena acting in an unconnected fashion?

 

[Gameface]

Say, as in Hurricane Katrina? Any evidence that those with AR-15s did better in protecting their property than those with ordinary pistols, revolvers, etc.? How big of a disaster does it take for this effect to show?



Being able to shoot fewer bullets in a given time-span means fewer people get shot, right?

AR-15s don't shot any faster than any semi-auto pistol. Where are you getting this crap? Both require 1 pull of the trigger to fire 1 round.

Please, with your massive gun expertise, please tell us what regulations we need to prevent gun violence.

 

[One Brow]

AR-15s don't shot any faster than any semi-auto pistol. Where are you getting this crap? Both require 1 pull of the trigger to fire 1 round.

Please, with your massive gun expertise, please tell us what regulations we need to prevent gun violence.

Then what's their advantage when firing into a crowd? I've always acknowledged I don't know much about guns. It doesn't help when those who do know something post statements that seem self-contradictory. It doesn't help when requests for evidence get derision, rather than evidence.
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I don't recall claiming gun violence could be prevented. However, since I acknowledge your expertise, would you agree that the ability to shoot fewer bullets will generally mean fewer people will be killed, or do yo0u have a reason to discount that?

 

[Scat]

would you agree that the ability to shoot fewer bullets will generally mean fewer people will be killed, or do yo0u have a reason to discount that?

It takes all of about 5 seconds to eject an empty clip and slap a full one in. The amount of bullets is only applicable if the shooter goes in with just one full clip and has to reload said single clip. As evidenced by recent shootings, the perps have all had multiple, ready to use clips with them.

 

[Gameface]

Then what's their advantage when firing into a crowd? I've always acknowledged I don't know much about guns. It doesn't help when those who do know something post statements that seem self-contradictory. It doesn't help when requests for evidence get derision, rather than evidence.
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I don't recall claiming gun violence could be prevented. However, since I acknowledge your expertise, would you agree that the ability to shoot fewer bullets will generally mean fewer people will be killed, or do yo0u have a reason to discount that?

OK first, sorry for being an ***.

Second, while a school is a fairly spacious building my first choice of weapon if I was going to use it inside a building would be a hand gun. Longer rifles are cumbersome and often difficult to get on target as you're moving through tight spaces and around corners. A hand gun has a certain advantage in that situation, especially since you'll most likely be firing at relatively close range. If, on the other hand, a mob was attacking my house and I was firing from a fixed position where I had a vantage point from which I could see their approach I would prefer a rifle. A rifle may be harder to maneuver and fire quickly and accurately in a confined space but its longer sight radius (the distance from the rear sight to the front sight) and longer barrel make it much much more accurate at intermediate distances. A scoped rifle is by far the best choice for anything that would be considered long range. But for defending myself in a fixed location a large magazine and a semi-auto rifle is the best choice. Each weapon has it's advantages and it's drawbacks.

The shooter at Sandy Hook fired 11 rounds at a single small child. That on the one hand is horrific. On the other it speaks to his derangement. That makes no sense and gained him no advantage. The child would have fared no better having been shot once or twice with standard hand-gun ammo.

I don't want to get too technical but I want to be honest. Hand guns kick more when fired rapidly. Partly due to how they are griped and partly because of how much they weigh and how their weight is distributed. So in a sense it is possible to fire a semi-auto rifle accurately at a higher fire rate. However, that advantage is hugely mitigated in a confined space. You have to swing that longer barrel around and take it off of targets in order to get around corners. In an open field it has all the advantages because you can leave it pointed in the general direction of your targets while taking advantage of it's reduced recoil.

But I've heard so many times how these "assault rifles" are capable of rapid fire. It's crap. You pull the trigger and you fire one round. Even with an AR-15 if you attempt to fire rapidly you'll get barrel rise and recoil that will take you off target. Firing quickly is dumb for the most part. Only very well trained shooters can maintain a high degree of accuracy and fire rapidly, regardless of the weapon.

As for firing into a crowd. I'm not talking about that. If a mob is attacking me I am taking aimed shots at prioritized threats. The ones coming with weapons or leading the charge. There is no place for a decent human being to be popping off shots into a crowd. That's never been what I've been talking about, ever. In that situation a hand gun is less accurate. That's why I would want a semi-auto rifle. To maintain a higher degree of accuracy so that only the target is hit.

Go to a gun range and see how well the average person shots a hand gun. Beyond 15 yards it seem like most people are lucky to get within 1ft of their target point. Go to 30 yards or 50 yards and it gets far far worse. Most people train with hand guns to hit things at 5-15ft. And that's at a range. It doesn't translate well to what they're capable of in the heat of the moment.

 

[fishonjazz]

It takes all of about 5 seconds to eject an empty clip and slap a full one in. The amount of bullets is only applicable if the shooter goes in with just one full clip and has to reload said single clip. As evidenced by recent shootings, the perps have all had multiple, ready to use clips with them.

IMO 5 seconds is more time than zero seconds... again that is just my opinion

 

[Gameface]

IMO 5 seconds is more time than zero seconds... again that is just my opinion

5 seconds is an eternity longer than it takes a trained shooter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcHUZuyQjH8

 

[fishonjazz]

5 seconds is an eternity longer than it takes a trained shooter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcHUZuyQjH8

I was mostly just being a sarcastic dick.... sorry about that.

BTW i liked your post before this one... good info

 

[franklin]

This is hillarious: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-12-30/benevolent-billionaires-should-buy-out-bushmaster.html

Oh please do. You'll create a springboard for competition. Taking out the largest will create 100 newer small companies. How benevolent!

 

[babe]

Then what's their advantage when firing into a crowd? I've always acknowledged I don't know much about guns. It doesn't help when those who do know something post statements that seem self-contradictory. It doesn't help when requests for evidence get derision, rather than evidence.
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I don't recall claiming gun violence could be prevented. However, since I acknowledge your expertise, would you agree that the ability to shoot fewer bullets will generally mean fewer people will be killed, or do yo0u have a reason to discount that?

Solving the horrific multiple shooting problem really comes back to just having someone on the site who for all informational purposes available to the public, is armed and capable of returning fire. . . . or even just one little old lady with guts to charge, screaming, right at the perp.

These mental nutjobs have chosen their place of "business" based on an expectation of no resistance or returned fire, and have planned to end their own lives themselves before giving anyone else the satisfaction.

When they've gone as far as they can with their cowardly killing spree, and anything pops up that looks like could take him down, these nutjobs always blow their own brains out.

Like I said before, Obama knows how to protect his own kids in school. He selects a school with a heavily armed contingent of securtiy personnel.

So, here's a question about elitists. If someone thinks his own kids are worth protecting, but doesn't really think your kids are worth it, is he really an elitist, or just a stooge doing what he's told?

 

[Stoked]

Solving the horrific multiple shooting problem really comes back to just having someone on the site who for all informational purposes available to the public, is armed and capable of returning fire. . . . or even just one little old lady with guts to charge, screaming, right at the perp.

These mental nutjobs have chosen their place of "business" based on an expectation of no resistance or returned fire, and have planned to end their own lives themselves before giving anyone else the satisfaction.

When they've gone as far as they can with their cowardly killing spree, and anything pops up that looks like could take him down, these nutjobs always blow their own brains out.

Like I said before, Obama knows how to protect his own kids in school. He selects a school with a heavily armed contingent of securtiy personnel.

So, here's a question about elitists. If someone thinks his own kids are worth protecting, but doesn't really think your kids are worth it, is he really an elitist, or just a stooge doing what he's told?

From what I understand at least two people (principal and school psychologist) charged the shooter at Sandy hook.

I am in favor of schools having a trained security guard(s). I am not wild on the idea of armed teachers.

Also keep in mind that Sandy Hook already had some defensive minded measures in place. Such as automatically locking doors when the bell rang. Shooter still got in.

He also obtained the guns illegally (stole them from his mother).

 

[SaltyDawg]

From what I understand at least two people (principal and school psychologist) charged the shooter at Sandy hook.

I am in favor of schools having a trained security guard(s). I am not wild on the idea of armed teachers.

Also keep in mind that Sandy Hook already had some defensive minded measures in place. Such as automatically locking doors when the bell rang. Shooter still got in.

He also obtained the guns illegally (stole them from his mother).

I could go either way on the armed teachers.

I'm definitely in favor of a cop or 2 at every school. That would help end this nonsense all by itself.

On the teachers, maybe they should be offered an incentive. Maybe pay them a few grand per year extra if they complete some training and agree to be a security enforcer or whatever you want to call it.

This training would obviously include firearms, but would also cover calling the police, not panicking, how and where to hide the kids, etc.

They could then be required to pass a refresher course every couple years or so in order to maintain the certification.

I'm not necessarily for or against this. I haven't given it enough thought to really consider any arguments against it. I'm definitely for the cops in every school though.

 

[One Brow]

It takes all of about 5 seconds to eject an empty clip and slap a full one in. The amount of bullets is only applicable if the shooter goes in with just one full clip and has to reload said single clip. As evidenced by recent shootings, the perps have all had multiple, ready to use clips with them.

Some of the current legislation being discussed requires clips that take more effort to reload.

 

[Scat]

Some of the current legislation being discussed requires clips that take more effort to reload.

And if the shooter simply takes a dozen pre-loaded clips with him?

All of these measures being recommended are not going to stop the types of crimes that have been perpetrated. They are knee jerk reactions to horrific crimes.

 

[One Brow]

That's why I would want a semi-auto rifle. To maintain a higher degree of accuracy so that only the target is hit.

Thank you for the explanation. You seem to know what you're talking about, and I never hear details like this from news stories. I will try to remember it.

I can see your point about rapid fire increasing recoil. Do we have any knowledge of whther these school shooters used a rapid-fire mode anyhow, and how it affected the casualties?