Flat Tax and Tithing

[PearlWatson]

Quick story. My grandfather once risked 80% of his total worth to start a company in a depressed town that was desperately in need of jobs. He obviously believed in his idea and understood the risks.. but also was genuinely trying to help the town.

As part of the negotiation to put the required millions into the venture, he gained approval from both local and state government to have relief from both corporate income tax and sales tax for a period of years. As a result of years of struggle, unassuredness, and fortitude, the venture was considered a success. More than 700 employees were hired (with less than 10% at minimum wage) and the town then drew in more business because the community could better support those businesses. These brought even more jobs and now that town is flourishing.
I sincerely believe had it not been for my grandfather and forward thinking politicians the town would have failed or still be stuck in rough rut.

But you know what? Even though my grandfather receivee multiple humanitarian of year awards.. he still had some that resented his success ane felt it was unfair that he got to build his company free of taxes in the beginning.

That pretty much describes the insanity of the classism behind "social justice" in a nutshell.

 

[leftyjace]

I don't disagree with the literal meaning of your words. However, when you are using terms like "OVER-compensate for conditioning" and "excessive opportunity and aide", it does make me wonder whether you think that would be any more compensation would be over-compensation and whether more opportunity and aide than currently exist would be excessive. It seems to me that you are deliberately loading your language.

In my opinion, any additional outright aide should be in the form of educational opportunity. I'll address a little further down.

I would also say that your notion of 'hard work overcoming conditioning' is itself the product of conditioning, and not a well-evidenced phenomenon.

Perhaps. But then we get into whether our personalities or certain personality traits are nature or nuture. I am a strong believer that it is both - and in many cases, nature is much more strong than nurture. Determination, focus, hard work, etc. are just as likely to be a product of inherent ability than conditioning.

Further, in this thread I've been primarily talking about investing in children and possibly young adults. Most are not at the stage where we consider them to be responsible for their own actions. Even men in their 20s are generally known for being irresponsible.

Children? Absolutely. Young Adults? Absolutely worth the effort, even if by that time the results are less likely to be markedly favorable.

I believe that a significant part of that investment is teaching them how to be responsible. But this is a greater condemnation of the way kids are raised these days versus in previous generations. This is a great article on the subject:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/200411/nation-wimps

I realize men in their 20s are generally known for being irresponsible, but it was not always so. Men in their 20s now that are idiots deserve to reap the rewards of their actions. I know I did, and I'm better for it.

 

[PearlWatson]

Wow, I've never seen this side of leftyjace.

 

[One Brow]

Perhaps. But then we get into whether our personalities or certain personality traits are nature or nuture. I am a strong believer that it is both - and in many cases, nature is much more strong than nurture. Determination, focus, hard work, etc. are just as likely to be a product of inherent ability than conditioning.

I agree that it is both, and there is an interaction between them.

Children? Absolutely. Young Adults? Absolutely worth the effort, even if by that time the results are less likely to be markedly favorable.

I agree.

I believe that a significant part of that investment is teaching them how to be responsible. But this is a greater condemnation of the way kids are raised these days versus in previous generations. This is a great article on the subject:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/200411/nation-wimps

I realize men in their 20s are generally known for being irresponsible, but it was not always so. Men in their 20s now that are idiots deserve to reap the rewards of their actions. I know I did, and I'm better for it.

This is the nostalgia effect. When was there a time when authors in their 60, when writing about the young men in their day, talked about about how responsible they were?

 

[Stoked]

Perhaps. But then we get into whether our personalities or certain personality traits are nature or nuture. I am a strong believer that it is both - and in many cases, nature is much more strong than nurture. Determination, focus, hard work, etc. are just as likely to be a product of inherent ability than conditioning.

I agree that it is both, and there is an interaction between them.



I agree.



This is the nostalgia effect. When was there a time when authors in their 60, when writing about the young men in their day, talked about about how responsible they were?

To some degree yes but I also believe there is some merit there. Society has changed and the way of raising children, particularly in the area of discipline, have gotten exceedingly lax. I am by no means an old man but even I can see a gradual shift from parenting to electronic babysitters such as the ipad and smartphones. That vreates a lack of independence in the child, lack of social skills, responsibility and basic courtesy. Our society is changing to instant gratification and the newer generations will continue to suffer for it.

 

[One Brow]

To some degree yes but I also believe there is some merit there. Society has changed and the way of raising children, particularly in the area of discipline, have gotten exceedingly lax. I am by no means an old man but even I can see a gradual shift from parenting to electronic babysitters such as the ipad and smartphones. That vreates a lack of independence in the child, lack of social skills, responsibility and basic courtesy. Our society is changing to instant gratification and the newer generations will continue to suffer for it.

That's just what my grandparents and their siblings used to say about my friends.

 

[leftyjace]

Wow, I've never seen this side of leftyjace.

Well... the last time I was this outspoken I was also dealing with a number of demons that I posted about, and was oftentimes ostracized and ridiculed for the things I posted. (And, well, rightfully so, in some cases.)

I like to think I'm a little more sane since then, and have matured some.

EDIT: I also have an undergrad and grad degree now, whereas previously I thought I knew a lot, but didn't know as much as I thought I did. And yet... I was still right about a lot of things. I predicted that we wouldn't experience a full recovery in the economy until 2013 at the earliest, and that one of our biggest obstacles is and would continue to be deficit spending... and I was right, much to The Pearl's chagrine. He seemed to think that nanotechnology was going to make any worries about excessive deficit spending and the crowding-out affect obsolete.

 

[bordelais7]

I don't have time to reply to most of this, sorry. But to address the question in bold, it's because of discretionary income (or lack thereof). The $10K earner has a much larger fraction of his/her income that goes to the necessities of life such as basic food, basic clothing, basic shelter, basic health care. Maybe there are other basics I'm forgetting. So charging that individual a lower percentage of income tax seems just, to me.

Should LDS members earning less than $30k be exempt from tithing? Not a loaded or leading question, just curious how you would answer this and distinguish the differences.

 

[Dr. Jones]

Should LDS members earning less than $30k be exempt from tithing? Not a loaded or leading question, just curious how you would answer this and distinguish the differences.

Interesting. I know how I would answer.. but curious what Colton says.

 

[Stoked]

That's just what my grandparents and their siblings used to say about my friends.

And I think they have a point. To some degree it is changing.

 

[Stoked]

Should LDS members earning less than $30k be exempt from tithing? Not a loaded or leading question, just curious how you would answer this and distinguish the differences.

No. I say this as a person that used to make less than 30k and paid tithing.

 

[leftyjace]

No. I say this as a person that used to make less than 30k and paid tithing.

VERY interesting.

In the LDS faith, individuals pay tithing in full. After that, if they need additional assistance, it is granted to them through the welfare program, I believe.

Perhaps part of the reason we can't draw analogies between the flat tax and tithing is because our government uses tax exemptions as a form of "relief", alternate to an actual welfare subsidy.

Very interesting turn this convo has taken, yes. Thanks, bordy.

 

[Stoked]

VERY interesting.

In the LDS faith, individuals pay tithing in full. After that, if they need additional assistance, it is granted to them through the welfare program, I believe.

Perhaps part of the reason we can't draw analogies between the flat tax and tithing is because our government uses tax exemptions as a form of "relief", alternate to an actual welfare subsidy.

Very interesting turn this convo has taken, yes. Thanks, bordy.

The way I view it is simple. If I want the benefits of a group or organization then I need to comply with their rules. If the members of a group take care of the group than the group will take care of them.

 

[HipHopAnonymous]

VERY interesting.

In the LDS faith, individuals pay tithing in full. After that, if they need additional assistance, it is granted to them through the welfare program, I believe.

Perhaps part of the reason we can't draw analogies between the flat tax and tithing is because our government uses tax exemptions as a form of "relief", alternate to an actual welfare subsidy.

Very interesting turn this convo has taken, yes. Thanks, bordy.

So tithing is a requirement to get welfare?

 

[Stoked]

So tithing is a requirement to get welfare?

It is not necessarily a requirement. For the church to help you out they like for youu to be contributing to the church. The bext way to do that is be an active member in good standing. That means paying tithing. At the least they have you attend meetings or participate in service activities or something.

 

[Gameface]

So tithing is a requirement to get welfare?

I knew an "LDS" family where the dad was a sleazy car salesman using prescription pain medicine and I think anything else he could get his hands on (for those not in the know on this, prescription pain medicine is heroin that your insurance helps pay for, so it's an attractive option for junkies with insurance. With no insurance heroin off the street gets to be a much better deal and I've seen several pain pill junkies turn into heroin users), his wife also used several hard drugs and they found out their very very pretty 18yo daughter got knocked up and had a heroin problem. I went to the girls wedding a few months later, I think the boys parents own some well-known restaurant chain in town but can't remember which one. Bolerjack was there. I din't talk to him because I'm shy.

Anyway, to the point... The family eventually crashed and burned and needed help. So, even though they weren't really members in good standing and they were surely several years behind on their tithing, the LDS church helped them out, but on the condition that they (pretty much all of them) volunteered time at the free grocery store, or whatever it's called. That and start attending church services and start paying tithing.

So, if you ask for it and play along I'm pretty sure they'll help you out even if you've never paid a cent in tithe. (maybe it didn't hurt that the mom's family is quite wealthy and very involved in the church, but who knows)

 

[colton]

Should LDS members earning less than $30k be exempt from tithing? Not a loaded or leading question, just curious how you would answer this and distinguish the differences.

No, they shouldn't be exempt from tithing. But it's not an equivalent matter. Tithing is (in my opinion/the LDS view) a commandment from God, with a flat rate mandated by revelation. And people are promised blessings for following the commandment. Taxes are not a commandment from God, except via the "render unto Caesar" thing, and there is certainly no such thing as a flat governmental tax rate revealed in the scriptures. And no promised blessings for paying a tax (except the blessing of staying out of jail ;-) ).

Actually, when the United Order was in effect, you could say that there was perhaps even a negative tax rate for poor people because they got back more than they gave to the government.

Anyway, another consideration is that poor LDS people also sometimes get helped via fast offerings. When in that situation their "effective tithing rate" (my phrase, not God's) would be lower than 10% if you consider the money they give up combined with the financial assistance they get back. So even in the LDS church, tithing isn't as flat as the flat tax proponents might want us to believe.

 

[Gameface]

I see everyone paying something, even if some people receive it and more back in various forms (including cash), as a way to make everyone feel invested and that everyone is in this together. When 50% of people pay no tax, yet have a voice in how many benefits they should receive and how much actual taxpayers should pay I think it generates the kind of resentment and distrust we see in every aspect of politics today.

 

[leftyjace]

I see everyone paying something, even if some people receive it and more back in various forms (including cash), as a way to make everyone feel invested and that everyone is in this together. When 50% of people pay no tax, yet have a voice in how many benefits they should receive and how much actual taxpayers should pay I think it generates the kind of resentment and distrust we see in every aspect of politics today.

Fair point. "Skin in the game", etc.

 

[Stoked]

Fair point. "Skin in the game", etc.

A point I fully agree with. Skin in the game indeed.