What's new

Was Fes' Play Last Night An Aberration?

Is aberration some kind of synonym for awesome?

If so, the answer is yes.

How confident am I that Fes will be amazing this season? This confident:

prod
 
So explain to us how game 3 against the lakers and especially game 4 were bad games for Fes. Also why don't you dig up Bynum's stat line against the Jazz versus the rest of the teams he played in the playoffs.

My post had nothing to do with a game-by-game analysis of Fess's play. Who could "explain" Fess, anyway?

By most accounts, Fess has largely been a goof-off, jackpottin kid the last few years. Although he has developed a lot skill-wise in that time, I'm convinced that his primary limitations have been more mental than physical. Now, according to Fess himself, Deron, and others "in the know" (including even Sloan) his attitude has changed and it sure shows (so far) in his game, too.

I had to see it to believe it, but I too am now fairly optimistic about Fess's future in the league.
 
If that doesn't suggest to you that on-court experience isn't crucial and possibly a primary factor for player development, I don't know how to help you.

S2, did it ever occur to you that, even assuming that on-court experience is "crucial," you have it completely backwards? You act as though you must first play in NBA games, and only then become NBA-worthy. But game experience is the LAST thing to come, not the first. Unless you have improved and "developed" from junior high, to high school, to college, etc., you will never be NBA worthy. You will never get, and never deserve, the chance to play in an NBA game without very substantial prior "development." You act as though it is Sloan's job to turn any misfit who walks in the door into an NBA player while the player just sits around and waits for the magic moment when he is given the chance to play comes around so that he can then be a guaranteed super-star.
 
IGS, are you going to reply to my retort or not?

I'm assuming no since you haven't already and you'll just chalk it up to, "It's not worth my time, you're so dumb Serpico."

That's cool though.

The funny thing is, I'd probably love you in person. I know I have my own huge crushes. YB's daughter being #1 on that list at this current moment.
I'll go with all that you stated here.
 
I see "talent" as a natural affinity for an activity or type of knowledge, and could be a factor in the speed of acquiring any of the advantages discussed. A person with a talent for strength fnds it easy to put on muscle, a person with a talent for shooting develops agood form easily and quickly starts hitting a high percentage, a perso with a talent for court vision starting making the right pass quickly.

I'm not sure how his body was better than Ostertag's for an NBA center. They were of comparable size, and Ostertag probably had even longer arms. Fesenko is certainly larger than Okur.
You don't have to be a physiologist to look at Fesenko and see has at least a modestly better build than Osterblob, even before he lost the weight. His agility is OK, not great; I don't remember Ostertag being very good at all at agility. Fes's speed is OK, not great; most 7-footers' speed aren't great. He was out of shape before, but he wasn't even playing enough time to test that.

I accept that this is your opinion. I saw him as needed to improve his endurance, mobility, shooting, and footwork. You can't improve those in-game to the same degree you can improve them in a structured environment.
His mobility was OK; he wasn't getting beaten nearly as much as Okur (and Boozer) was on the floor, and often--even now--he is getting beaten often because of not having a feel for defense.

His free-throw shooting was not good, but this is a combination of off-court practice and on-court experience; as I have stated for your convenience repeatedly, multiple players on the Jazz--not to mention on other teams--. But except possibly in the last few minutes of games,

It's not a stretch to argue that Fesenko's defensive footwork is already better than Okur's and Boozer's, and he has room to improve.

He's fouling too much, but this is one of the clearest examples of a skill that is best developed in games than in practice, which falls far short from simulateing a real game. I remember a guy named Millsap who fouled too much in his first year or two also (and when I say "year", I mean one in which he got more than scraps of minutes. In Millsap's first year, he had more than twice as many minutes than Fesenko did, and Millsap was still pretty raw at the end of his rookie season, and he's probably one of those players whom you claim is working hard in practice. Yet another example that while some off-court development is usually necessary, there is no substitute for in-game experience.)


Confirmation bias. You interpret everything you see in this regard under the initial assumption that the most important development factor is playing time, rather than allow for the evidence to dictate the importance of playing time. To demonstrate my point, please answer this: what sort of observation would be needed to demonstrate that players can improve even without receiving playing time? I fully expect the answer, if there is one at all, to be essentially unfulfillable.
Well, it's usually your job to prove your point, and I've noticed that you provide very few examples, unlike me, probably because you have none. As for Allen Iverson, I'll grant you that he probably was a gym rat, but the fact that he was checking out at least mentally from practice when he was a vet still supports the notion that practice falls short of in-game experience when at least some your veterans / starters / first 7 or 8 in the rotation are not going at it 100%. They might be tired, the could be nursing aches or injuries, and they don't want to be injured further. I continue to add to the evidence that in-game experience is a necessary condition for player development. Again, the onus is on you to find basis for your argument.
 
You missed my point.

My post had nothing to do with a game-by-game analysis of Fess's play. Who could "explain" Fess, anyway?

By most accounts, Fess has largely been a goof-off, jackpottin kid the last few years. Although he has developed a lot skill-wise in that time, I'm convinced that his primary limitations have been more mental than physical. Now, according to Fess himself, Deron, and others "in the know" (including even Sloan) his attitude has changed and it sure shows (so far) in his game, too.

I had to see it to believe it, but I too am now fairly optimistic about Fess's future in the league.

You criticized Fes' play in the playoffs when in reality he only had two games that I or many would consider poor. To you, OneBrow and everyone else who suggests that this is all about practice, I'm sorry but you guys are DEAD wrong. You must absolutely have practice before playing time but once you get to a certain point, the ONLY way you continue to progress is to get playing time against other players.

A boxer or mma fighter with 20 wins against 20 opponents > than a fighter with 20 wins over 2 opponents.

A 1000 hrs time in a flight simulator < 1000 in air hrs as a pilot

Practice against Memo and Kosta < Game time against Yao, Howard, Illgauskas, Bynum etc., etc.,

Football teams are often talked about in terms of the number of returning seniors. Why because seniors have the maturity and experience the new guys don't have, ESPECIALLY when it comes to big games.

Practice with the Jazz doesn't include the pressure of 20,000 screaming home game or worse away game fans.

All you have to do is look around and see that there are hundreds of examples of where school/practice can only get you so far and you need practical application of your skills in real world situations to advance.

Jerry yelling at you in practice is nothing like the pressure of yelling at you in a game and pulling you at the slightest mistake in front of 20,000 screaming fans. There are some things that you can learn ONLY by playing, period. I've seen Fes consistently in practice hit 80, somtimes 90% of his free throws. So why the discrepancy? Pressure in the game versus no pressure. The reason his stats are going up are because he is becoming more confident and less afraid to give it all instead of making a mistake. When he left last year his weight was 292. Not much above where he is now. Much of the difference is how Coach Sloan has so far treated him this year and I can tell you it is night and day and very much appreciated. Yeah coach bitches him out still but he doesn't single him out and I think you are seeing an improvement as a result.
 
Last edited:
. You must absolutely have practice before playing time but once you get to a certain point, the ONLY way you continue to progress is to get playing time against other players.


I don't agree that the ONLY way to improve, after a certain point, is in games. Deron and others work hard every off-season to improve their skills (hint, they don't do it by playin in official NBA games). But let's assume that you are 100% accurate that a player will stagnate and be incapable of any further advancement once he hits his "certain point." Now what? Suppose the "certain point" he has hit jeopardizes the team every time he is in the game? Does he deserve any more that strictly scrub minutes in blow-outs at that point? Should the team lose games so that he can "advance" a little further? I don't think so. Homey don't play dat.
 
If someone wants to argue that player X should play more because he is better than all other options for the role he has been assigned, fine. That's quite respectable. Sloan or others may disagree, but the logic is sound, anyway.


But his aint no D-league. Arguing that player should play more precisely BECUASE he sucks and is incompetent, and needs to get better aint logical. Cut his sorry *** and gitcho self a more better player if that's the case.
 
I don't agree that the ONLY way to improve, after a certain point, is in games. Deron and others work hard every off-season to improve their skills (hint, they don't do it by playin in official NBA games). But let's assume that you are 100% accurate that a player will stagnate and be incapable of any further advancement once he hits his "certain point." Now what? Suppose the "certain point" he has hit jeopardizes the team every time he is in the game? Does he deserve any more that strictly scrub minutes in blow-outs at that point? Should the team lose games so that he can "advance" a little further? I don't think so. Homey don't play dat.

No but there were plenty of games that we were up 20, including one where we were up 30 in the 4th quarter and Sloan left the starters in until 4 minutes. 4 minutes later than when the opposing coach put his scrubs in.

Also there aren't a lot of games where you could say Fes would jeopardize a win. What chapped me was Fes having a good game, Sloan publicly recognizing said good game. Sloan promising to find more minutes for him only to bench him for the next 10 games. To see Fes go from excited and optimistic following a good performance to questioning himself and his chances a little more game by game on the bench.
 
If someone wants to argue that player X should play more because he is better than all other options for the role he has been assigned, fine. That's quite respectable. Sloan or others may disagree, but the logic is sound, anyway.


But his aint no D-league. Arguing that player should play more precisely BECUASE he sucks and is incompetent, and needs to get better aint logical. Cut his sorry *** and gitcho self a more better player if that's the case.


Did you notice who they cut and who they kept? Do you really think that was coincidence anymore than who filled in for Memo when he was injured? Keep slinging the insults towards Fes because as an NBA scout you really know your stuff.
 
I don't agree that the ONLY way to improve, after a certain point, is in games. Deron and others work hard every off-season to improve their skills (hint, they don't do it by playin in official NBA games). But let's assume that you are 100% accurate that a player will stagnate and be incapable of any further advancement once he hits his "certain point." Now what? Suppose the "certain point" he has hit jeopardizes the team every time he is in the game? Does he deserve any more that strictly scrub minutes in blow-outs at that point? Should the team lose games so that he can "advance" a little further? I don't think so. Homey don't play dat.
I don't agree that the only way to improve is in games, either. I don't think go4jazz beleives that.

But the claim here is that Fes didn't get enough PT for sufficient development, and not playing Fes was suboptimal especially in times last year (and maybe beforehand) when playing Fes (1) would've not affected the outcome; or (2) Fes might've been superior than the interior defense that was sometimes adequate by some combination of Boozer, Millsap, and Okur but other times was very much NOT so.

The team would've benefitted from a young center with some experience; they lost games because of poor interior D from their starters, and their frontcourt (Okur especially) wasn't always tearing it up offensively, either.

It's fun, Hopper, to read your off-the-wall statements, but in this case, it seems like you're being semi-serious, and it doesn't seem to register.

Your point of working in the off-season is well taken, and Fes could've trained harder, but if he's the best backup option at any given time, he should be on the floor.
 
Also there aren't a lot of games where you could say Fes would jeopardize a win.

Well, again, if you think Fess should play because he's a good player, fine. S2 seems to argue that Fess must play more because he is bad, and must get better by playing. I don't buy that line. The argument that you must play more to get better don't fly. Generally a player must get better to play more, not vice versa.
 
Well, again, if you think Fess should play because he's a good player, fine. S2 seems to argue that Fess must play more because he is bad, and must get better by playing. I don't buy that line. The argument that you must play more to get better don't fly. Generally a player must get better to play more, not vice versa.


You talk normal? Why not stick to one or the other?
 
Keep slinging the insults towards Fes because as an NBA scout you really know your stuff.

I think you misunderstand the point of my posts. Although I have made a few passing, general references to Fess and his skill-set (includin the statement that I am optimistic about his future in the league), at no time has my intention been to crictically assess the precise value (or lack thereof) of Fess in past seaons.

I am simply questioning the line of reasoning S2 has often advanced in the past as confused and invalid. If S2 simply wants to say that Fess is a much better player than Sloan realizes, fine. My own damn self, I trust Jer's knowledge and assessment of the situation more than S2's, but that's just a side issue.

I don't agree with the claim that Sloan PREVENTED Fess from improving by not playin him when he wasn't deemed ready to play. Fess, or anyone else, can get better without playin in games. That aint the sine qua non of improvement, as S2 explicitly suggests when he says it is a "necessary condition" of improvement.
 
I think you misunderstand the point of my posts. Although I have made a few passing, general references to Fess and his skill-set (includin the statement that I am optimistic about his future in the league), at no time has my intention been to crictically assess the precise value (or lack thereof) of Fess in past seaons.

I am simply questioning the line of reasoning S2 has often advanced in the past as confused and invalid. If S2 simply wants to say that Fess is a much better player than Sloan realizes, fine. My own damn self, I trust Jer's knowledge and assessment of the situation more than S2's, but that's just a side issue.
Um, Hopper, that's what I've been saying all along. I believe that I have stated (and when not, it could have been easily inferred) that Sloan had underrated him. But it wasn't just because Fes had shown signs of promise (better build than Osterblob, at least modestly better agility than Okur or Boozer, opponents' shot selection when he's on the court however), but because the alternative didn't "deserve" (a term thrown around here) by their performance to be out there at times. I wasn't being greedy; I was lobbying for an average 10 minutes per available game or so. That's around the bare minimum that is necesary to evaluate whether a player "deserves" more.

I don't agree with the claim that Sloan PREVENTED Fess from improving by not playin him when he wasn't deemed ready to play. Fess, or anyone else, can get better without playin in games. That aint the sine qua non of improvement, as S2 explicitly suggests when he says it is a "necessary condition" of improvement.
Um, Sloan controls the minutes, so Sloan did prevent him. If Fes had been more disciplined off the court, then Sloan probably would have played him more readily. I place the blame on the two of them, but Slaon is the one with more experience. IMHO, given the utter disaster that has been Utah's interior defense over the past seasons, Sloan should've given whomever they had extra minutes. Instead, he used the Harpring criteria or Collins criteria for playing players: if you work hard in practice, then I'll play you, even if you are not the best option on the court.

You're smarter than this Hopper--or you have the same Puritan biases where hard work is paramount and results come secondary.
 
...you have the same Puritan biases where hard work is paramount and results come secondary.

I remember a game a few years ago in, New Jersey, I think, early in the season. I think the Jazz were 6-0 and Boozer was having a great offensive game-- 16 pts on 7-10 shooting, or sumthin. Apparently Sloan wasn't satifisfied with his defensive effort and benched his *** in the 4th quarter. The Jazz ended up losing a very close game, and the board went nutz screaming about Sloan not playing "their best player."

Since then, many have suggested that Sloan should bench Boozer for his lack of defensive effort if for no other reason than to "send a message" that half-assed effort is unacceptable. Which is it, I wonder?

At the time, I argued that Sloan had probably done the best thing, long-term, all things considered. It is a poor message to send to the team as a whole to accept lackadaisical effort just because there is some compensation elsewhere. As soon as you tell a guy like Fess that a nonchalant, inconsistent approach to the game is quite satisfactory because he's still the best you have (assuming even that he is), you've lost the war, even if you win a battle.
 
In a similar vein, many have complained that Sloan didn't play Williams more as a rookie, includin Deron.

On the one hand, Deron has since said that he "hated" Sloan his first year, and felt they could have made the playoffs if he (Williams) had played more. On the other hand, he has often also said that the whole experience made him a better player in the long run and was ultimately a benefit for him.

For his part, Sloan has conceded that he "probably screwed (Deron) up some," with his strategy, but he has explained that he thought it was important for Williams to earn his playin time and not just have it handed to him because he was the third pick in the draft. He had, of course, seen where a prima donna attitude can lead (with AK).

Five years later, Deron is clearly one of, if not the, best point guard(s) in the league. He busted his *** in the off-season after his first year and came back determined to prove his worth, which he certainly did, from the git-go, his second year.

Sloan has been around a long time and seen a lot of things. From what I can tell, he often takes a long-term perspective in preference to a strictly short-term view, and is willing so sacrifice some things now if he thinks it will lead to a much greater return later. All a matter of judgment and calculated risk, of course, and anyone can play monday-mornin quarterback with any decision Sloan (or any other coach) makes. That's cheap and easy.

Sloan, unlike some coaches, and unlike most fans, tends to look at the "big picture" and retain abiding faith in certain things he values. He has integrity and is honest. He aint devious and don't play games. Sloan values team play, believes more effort can only mean more success, and does not believe things are so complicated that you have to be a rocket scientist to understand what's goin down. When people start thinkin too much, and tryin to get too devious, clever, and complicated, whether in personal interactions or any other aspect of what they're doin, they're usually off-track.
 
For his part, Sloan has conceded that he "probably screwed (Deron) up some," with his strategy, but he has explained that he thought it was important for Williams to earn his playin time and not just have it handed to him because he was the third pick in the draft. He had, of course, seen where a prima donna attitude can lead (with AK).
eh? How was AK a prima donna before 2005? Dude was one of the biggest studs in the NBA? I don't get it.
 
Then ya aint really been payin no attention, eh, Commie? Read what Mo Williams said about his first practice with the Jazz (that was, what, 2004)? AK was breakin plays, improvisin, and generally doing whatever he felt like doin, regardless of what Sloan wanted, as soon as he got his big contract, it seems.
 
I remember a game a few years ago in, New Jersey, I think, early in the season. I think the Jazz were 6-0 and Boozer was having a great offensive game-- 16 pts on 7-10 shooting, or sumthin. Apparently Sloan wasn't satifisfied with his defensive effort and benched his *** in the 4th quarter. The Jazz ended up losing a very close game, and the board went nutz screaming about Sloan not playing "their best player."

Since then, many have suggested that Sloan should bench Boozer for his lack of defensive effort if for no other reason than to "send a message" that half-assed effort is unacceptable. Which is it, I wonder?

At the time, I argued that Sloan had probably done the best thing, long-term, all things considered. It is a poor message to send to the team as a whole to accept lackadaisical effort just because there is some compensation elsewhere.
The problem with your post here is that it supports my argument. You cite a singular example in which Sloan benched Boozer based on in-game performance, but the Jazz lost. Kudos to Sloan for actually enforce his own philosophy. Once.

Under the theory that I have posted multiple times, however, Boozer would have been benched for one or two plays—maybe 5 minutes, possibly 10 minutes, depending on matchups and game situation—and then put back in the game. What probably happened in the scenario that you cite is that Boozer was benched for more than just a few minutes; i.e., maybe much of the fourth quarter or more. This is accounted for in what I have been proposing all along. IMHO, the bigger liability has been Okur most of the time, and he hasn’t been as prolific a scorer to compensate. And against some teams—maybe many teams—playing Boozer and Millsap together has been too short a frontcourt, even if they were both putting forth effort. And the best opportunity to slice 3 to 5 minutes per game last season was probably from Millsap, not Boozer, so I thought that Booze would be the last of the big 3 to lose minutes to Fes (unless he was dogging it more than the others, of course).

Sloan should have known this from years ago, since it’s been multiple seasons that he’s tried Boozer and Millsap (and Boozer and Okur, for that matter) unsuccessfully against Gasol and Bynum/Odom. That’s why it’s been so baffling (and damaging to the team) for Sloan to not go out of his way put Fes (and the young backup bigs before him) on the court to get the crucial development minutes, especially when Fes hasn’t been disastrous out there most of the time.

It was so obvious that interior defense was the #1 one problem that, in the summer of 2009, Kevin O’Connor—who isn’t one to say much—acknowledged that interior defense was one of their biggest problems. Yet Sloan sticks with the triumvirate of Boozer, Millsap, and Okur for most of the season (for two seasons, really), and, lo and behold! The Twin Towers of Tinseltown are there to beat the Jazz in the playoffs (and in a crucial game toward the end of the season). Experience might mean that you recognize a mistake when you do it

Given what Fes has done just from the 2010 playoffs to now, imagine how much better he would’ve been if he’d gotten another 5 MPG (which, not coincidentally, is about as much time required to bench Boozer or Okur when they are dogging) during the past three years, or even one year. It would’ve been hard to beat the Lakers without Kirilenko, but Fesenko did pretty damn decent for not having more than scraps of minutes during the past three seasons, even when he had done well, as go4jazz pointed out. And bear in mind that given that Fes lost less than 10 pounds during the off-season, weight wasn’t a big factor. He’s probably in better shape, but he rarely had gotten enough minutes to test his conditioning much anyway, and as I have written ad infinitum, he’s more agile (or less slow) than Okur and Ostertag and Tree and Eaton anyway.

As soon as you tell a guy like Fess that a nonchalant, inconsistent approach to the game is quite satisfactory because he's still the best you have (assuming even that he is), you've lost the war, even if you win a battle.
Again, you’re going back to rating players on practice, not performance. I didn’t think that Fes has been particularly nonchalant in games; at times, he has been too “chalant,” fouling people too quickly, which has sometimes been a good thing, but he has committed and continues to commit unnecessary fouls (probably because he’s inexperienced). Inconsistent overall he has been, but as I pointed out exhaustively, most young players at all talent levels are.

If there is a battle lost here, it’s that Sloan has given players like Fes some hope when they have gone out and have done well, only to be “rewarded” with a DNP for the next several games. It happened to Koufos, too, and while I think that Kouf has less talent (starting with build, also defensively) than Fes, KK2 did OK in his rookie year when Boozer was out, and then was banished to the bench for no particular reason. Talking about inconsistency, I don’t regard a coach putting a player in multiple games because of injury, seeing that the player does OK (for a young player) and then not letting him see the floor AT ALL for nearly the rest of the season as consistent coaching or development. Even in that point, Fes was the higher priority in my book, and sure enough, the Lakers pwned the Jazz that year in no small part because Utah had no answer to the interior D. If Fes had had 2000 minutes or more under his belt by now, just as 10 MPG would supply, he’d be far farther along, independent of his effort in practice. Of course if he had worked harder of the court, he probably would be farther along too. But on-court time is a necessary condition to good performance. No player, from Kobe to Koufos, is immune from such a principle.
 
Back
Top