According to RAPM Millsap was the 7th best player in the league

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Very done with Millsap. It'll be nicer to see him perform in a weaker conference-- to see if he struggles with as much inconsistency in a starting role as he did over here in the NW.

you saw inconsistency.
I saw remarkable consistency for a player asked to undergo a massive transition within the organization (from trying to win to treading water). A player that went from playing alongside one of the best PGs in the league, to playing second fiddle to Jefferson.

His inconsistencies are so dramatically over-rated on this board it's laughable.

 

[DutchJazzer]

All stats are just a guide to eyeball test and Millsap failed miserably last year after underwhelming performance year before. All the good wishes to him but both the Jazz and Millsap grew out of each other some time ago.

even michael jordan at pf would have looked like cj miles next to al jefferson on defense

 

[Jeffrey32]

I think Utah should look at re-signing him in 2 years when his deal with ATL is done. Utah will have hopefully solidified its starting five, with Favors and Kanters dominating the front court, and the team proven to be solid playoffs contenders by then in a 3-6 seed. Millsap could then return as the veteran 6th man and be a player that helps to take the Utah Jazz over the hump and into Western Conference Finals territory once again. That would be perfect full circle.

 

[Jazz4ever]

It's adjusted +/- with Bayesian inferences, being they pre-adjust the statistics based in part on what they think the statistics should look like. Not something I would put much faith in.

What stat do you find more reliable, and please don't say PER.

 

[zman1527]

7th best player in the league? Wow. And we did not even make it to the playoffs like 16 other teams did. I guess having the 7th best player does not count for much. Or maybe that stat is off a tad.

I don't buy it. 7th best should be serious stud leading the team to victory numerous times. Sap was nice but he was no stud.

 

[LogGrad98]

Millsap is a good person and a good player and I'm going to vomit when you all boo him at the ESA next season

Go touch a dog.

 

[LogGrad98]

what stat do you find more reliable, and please don't say per.

per.

 

[Deleted member 848]

you saw inconsistency.

Yes-- and so did others. Including the coaching staff, evidently.

I saw remarkable consistency for a player asked to undergo a massive transition within the organization (from trying to win to treading water).

Perseverance is the right word here-- not consistency. Which is awesome, and it makes me a fan of Millsap the person, and the player to a lesser extent. It would be nice to have such a versatile player on the team-- but we were provided an excellent opportunity in exchange for salary room-- and versatile third bigs aren't extremely rare.

A player that went from playing alongside one of the best PGs in the league, to playing second fiddle to Jefferson.

Al Jefferson > Millsap + no PG, on offense. It made sense why Millsap played second fiddle. Hayward and Burks didn't develop playmaking skills quick enough, and Mo/Tinsley/Watson offered zero playmaking from PG. Revolving our offense around a player who doesn't need stellar playmaking, on a team with almost zero mentionable playmakers, makes sense.

His inconsistencies are so dramatically defended on this board, its laughable.

Fixed.

 

[GVC]

Al Jefferson > Millsap + no PG, on offense. It made sense why Millsap played second fiddle. Hayward and Burks didn't develop playmaking skills quick enough, and Mo/Tinsley/Watson offered zero playmaking from PG. Revolving our offense around a player who doesn't need stellar playmaking, on a team with almost zero mentionable playmakers, makes sense.

Al becoming the bailout option and main hub of the offense wasn't the real problem post-Sloan/Deron debacle. Al Jefferson being the person to define team culture was the problem. Why/how that happened I don't know, but hopefully his lovable loser stink didn't rub off too much on the young guys.

It would be nice to have such a versatile player on the team-- but we were provided an excellent opportunity in exchange for salary room-- and versatile third bigs aren't extremely rare.

You're an idiot.

 

[Deleted member 848]

Al becoming the bailout option and main hub of the offense wasn't the real problem post-Sloan/Deron debacle. Al Jefferson being the person to define team culture was the problem. Why/how that happened I don't know, but hopefully his lovable loser stink didn't rub off too much on the young guys.

Right, because our young guys definitely have shown, or spoken, no interest in winning games in a season that many say they should just take it easy on. Similarly, our young players have continuously shown zero effort on the defensive end, and mimic the same 'losing-basketball' characteristics surrounded in infamy among Jazz fans due to one Al Jefferson


/sarcasm

You're an idiot.

And you're a socially-awkward narcissist . I'm just glad that my idiocy doesn't leave me prone to unprovoked name calling, particularly in basketball conversations when you offer no points yourself.


Just being honest. I think you know I've never had a problem with you-- but the reverse does not seem to be the case

 

[zbone]

Some people on this board appear to be butthurt by pretty much neutral opinions on Millsap which is awkward.

 

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Yes-- and so did others. Including the coaching staff, evidently.




Perseverance is the right word here-- not consistency. Which is awesome, and it makes me a fan of Millsap the person, and the player to a lesser extent. It would be nice to have such a versatile player on the team-- but we were provided an excellent opportunity in exchange for salary room-- and versatile third bigs aren't extremely rare.



Al Jefferson > Millsap + no PG, on offense. It made sense why Millsap played second fiddle. Hayward and Burks didn't develop playmaking skills quick enough, and Mo/Tinsley/Watson offered zero playmaking from PG. Revolving our offense around a player who doesn't need stellar playmaking, on a team with almost zero mentionable playmakers, makes sense.


Fixed.

Thanks for the mixed bag of semantics + glossy generalizations. It was a great way to jump over the interests in my comment rather than try to take it hear on. The apparent line-by-line breakdown of my post was a good distraction.

 

[Avery]

You can throw whatever stats out there based on any formula the author perceives as the right one, but it doesn't change the simple fact that we saw Millsap play, saw him not play well and saw him sign elsewhere for more money than we would or ever should have given him.

 

[Deleted member 848]

Thanks for the mixed bag of semantics + glossy generalizations. It was a great way to jump over the interests in my comment rather than try to take it hear on. The apparent line-by-line breakdown of my post was a good distraction.

Conversely, thanks for the vague response that offers no rebuttal to anything that I said. I'm more than eager to hear points that you have, that would make me rethink anything that I've said in the posts prior

 

[moevillini]

my turn...


I just want to say thank you falettinme be mice elf again


phew, I've been waiting a long time to be able to say that.

 

[One Brow]

I don't think this is correct. The prior they use is not subjective ("what they think"), but rather obtained from prior year statistics (IIRC, the stats are calculated using ridge regression, rookies are usually given a very poor prior).

The very notion that these statistics are expected to be consistent year-to-year is subjective. If a statistic is wildly variable in consecutive years, that you can reduce that somewhat by considering multiple years, but adjusting an individual year based on previous years is a subjective influence.

 

[One Brow]

What stat do you find more reliable, and please don't say PER.

What's the standard for "reliability"? Do you have a non-subjective one?

+/- and adjusted +/- are highly variable, but they do not build in subjective biases. RAPM does, in it's expectations of year-to-year consistency.

 

[GVC]

Right, because our young guys definitely have shown, or spoken, no interest in winning games in a season that many say they should just take it easy on. Similarly, our young players have continuously shown zero effort on the defensive end, and mimic the same 'losing-basketball' characteristics surrounded in infamy among Jazz fans due to one Al Jefferson


/sarcasm

eh? What players say is of very little value. I agree that Gordo and Kanter have shown plenty of competitiveness thus far. We'll see how they perform when given greater responsibility.

And you're a socially-awkward narcissist . I'm just glad that my idiocy doesn't leave me prone to unprovoked name calling, particularly in basketball conversations when you offer no points yourself.


Just being honest. I think you know I've never had a problem with you-- but the reverse does not seem to be the case

I was going to delete the last part of my post, but got caught up doing some other **** and didn't get back to it in time. Sorry.

With that said, as NAOS has already stated, Millsap's inconsistency is generally overstated by the "iso scoring is the only thing that matters" crowd (hooray for ****ty box score and advanced stats!). Take a look at the conference finalists from this past season (hell, consider the recent relatively successful Deron/Boozer Jazz teams...). 5 man basketball is winning basketball in today's NBA. Millsap is one of the best team basketball players at the 4 in the league. There's a reason why he performs well in virtually all individual "advanced" statistics (no matter how flawed they are) and his teams do much better when he's on the floor than off.

 

[mhindy]

If Millsap was the 7th best player in the NBA, he wouldn't have gone to Atlanta on a 2 yr 19 mil contract. Every front office evaluates players for a living and for the most part they are damn good at it. So why is the 7th best player in the NBA getting paid less than 10 mil a year for only 2 years? Either every front office is incredibly stupid, or Millsap is nowhere near the 7th best player in the league.

 

[Deleted member 848]

eh? What players say is of very little value. I agree that Gordo and Kanter have shown plenty of competitiveness thus far. We'll see how they perform when given greater responsibility.

Kewl.

I was going to delete the last part of my post, but got caught up doing some other **** and didn't get back to it in time. Sorry.

Apology NOT accepted. Might change my mind if you send me over some of your magical beard-growing ointment. Just PM'd you my address.

With that said, as NAOS has already stated, Millsap's inconsistency is generally overstated by the "iso scoring is the only thing that matters" crowd (hooray for ****ty box score and advanced stats!).

I wouldn't consider myself a part of this crowd. Millsap is obviously a much better building piece than Jefferson. One is a versatile player that can fit in an elite offense, and the other is Al Jefferson.

Take a look at the conference finalists from this past season (hell, consider the recent relatively successful Deron/Boozer Jazz teams...). 5 man basketball is winning basketball in today's NBA.

I whole-heartedly agree. I don't think any of my points made in this thread go against that.

Millsap is one of the best team basketball players at the 4 in the league. There's a reason why he performs well in virtually all individual "advanced" statistics (no matter how flawed they are) and his teams do much better when he's on the floor than off.

And here is where I would disagree. It is of my opinion that both Favors and Kanter will grow to become better players at the 4 than Millsap. Hence, I would assume that Millsap would have excelled as a third big, had he taken the Jazz contract a year ago. In fact, he would probably be the best third big in the league. He would flourish in a Manu-type role. The Milwaukee game comes to mind, when him and Kanter pushed the Bucks to overtime (after Favors was benched in the 4th after dropping 23 and 15 or w/e).


I would have been okay with retaining Millsap, if all three of our bigmen averaged >27mpg. But with Favors and Hayward needing extensions, and with Kanter Burks and Burke to follow-- I completely understand why the Jazz FO made the decision they did.