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The "Official" How many Turnovers did Trey Burke have in this game thread.

In the month of December:

Trey burke
6.2 ast
1.2 to
5.16 ast/to

Last 4 games
7.75 ast
1.75 to
4.43 ast/to


If he keeps this up... Even if for whatever reason he didnt improve much, he is already pretty much the most efficient passer in the league. I don't see this as an issue. At all. Now it remains to be seen if he can do this for a season, but it's clear that he has the capability to do so.
 
Ya its too bad burke isn't committing lots more turnovers per game because then we could be excited about his future

But alas, he doesn't turn it over much so he will probably suck

That's a great fun-house mirror form of the argument. The point is that a low TOV% is not necessarily a sign of future ability.

On the other hand, without looking at something like AST/TOV ratio and other indicators, it's hard to say whether Burke fits or breaks the pattern.
 
That's a great fun-house mirror form of the argument. The point is that a low TOV% is not necessarily a sign of future ability.

On the other hand, without looking at something like AST/TOV ratio and other indicators, it's hard to say whether Burke fits or breaks the pattern.

What pattern? Based on the stats he's apparently in a league of his own when it comes to TOV% as a rookie PG.
 
If trolling is asking someone to have some consistency in their stance. Then yes I'm trolling.

1st why are you making these comparsions if it just a sample?

2nd to your point about not getting excited why not? Your agrument has too many fallacy in it. You are basically comparing apples to oranges when you compare players that are catch-n-shoot wings to a lead guard. What are these players usage rate? How many mins did they log their rookie seasons? What were their over all projections as pros? Just a few questions that would need to be answered to get a feel for why they had such low TO% and why they didn't improve.

You are assuming that I'm not aware of your original point. I never said how you felt about Burke as a prospect. This has always been about you suggesting that his low TO% is not a good indication that he will be a good player, and that it may be a sign that his ceiling is limited.

If only you had the ability to look up any of those numbers anytime you wanted.

How about this: Make a case as to why he's more likely to be Eddie Jones than anyone else on the list and then we'll talk.
 
Could make a decent argument that high TO's aren't that alarming for a rookie, bit to pretend like a lack of TO's caps someone's upside is beyond full artard.


dat jazzfanz.com mobile app doe

It means that there are fewer "easy" improvements to make and "easy" mistakes to cut down on.

If you read the literature this is a conclusion that, while somewhat counterintuitive, jumps out at you.
 
If Marcus Smart is the best player available at the time of our pick, would you guys take him?
 
We have a red-alert for speaking out of your ***.


Oh really?


The point is that Burke's present Turnover numbers aren't a powerful predictor of a strong NBA future.




It's not a point of criticism about the player. I'm saying this isn't necessarily a good reason to be excited about Burke's future growth. I'm telling people not to drink so much punch over this particular statistic.


Before being a **** and slamming me with the label of "talking out of my ***", how about you develop a shred of communicational skills, and simply say "Well Dalamon, I think turnover percentage is a much more accurate statistic than turnovers/game. Heres why: "--

but of course, that would be admittedly very non-Kicky like.
 
It means that there are fewer "easy" improvements to make and "easy" mistakes to cut down on.

If you read the literature this is a conclusion that, while somewhat counterintuitive, jumps out at you.

Literature? What od you mean by 'literature', exactly? You mean statistics that can be interpreted 300 different ways by 300 different people?



Lol @ 'literature'. Pls link me the academic journals of the NBA world. TIA.


He's right guys, Burke is averaging low turnovers and therefore he will B Bust #BurkeIzBust
 
Guys, Burke is 21, and he is averaging low turnovers. He has already hit his ceiling. Let's ignore the fact that he isn't the main-ballhandler on this offense in his rookie year, in comparison to other great PGs. Let's ignore the differences in usage rates between Burke, and other great PGs in their rookie seasons. Guys, I read about it in 'basketball literature'.
 
Lol @ 'literature'. Pls link me the academic journals of the NBA world. TIA.
Are you suggesting there aren't academic journal articles about the NBA? Searching "NBA" in the Journal of Sports Economics returns 146 results.
 
Are you suggesting there aren't academic journal articles about the NBA? Searching "NBA" in the Journal of Sports Economics returns 146 results.

Comment was made in the context of player-analysis, and you should know that.



Pls elucidate as to how many of those "146" articles involve the analysis of players, performance-trends, and the like using box scores. If you can find a single published "literature" article involving turnover percentage by an academic journal, I'll pay you $20.
 
My point: the hilarity behind regarding box scores, and statistics as prevalent 'literature' as mentioned by Sirkickyass.



Hey guys. There is 'literature' regarding Jeremy Evans being one of the most accurate shooters in the NBA. We should funnel our offense around him.


Either way. I got finals to study for. Ta ta for now.
 
Literature? What od you mean by 'literature', exactly? You mean statistics that can be interpreted 300 different ways by 300 different people?



Lol @ 'literature'. Pls link me the academic journals of the NBA world. TIA.

You are aware that there are a large number of academic papers that are published yearly regarding the NBA and data analysis right? All you have to do is just look at the Sloan Sports Conference for any given year and you'll find a dozen plus. Several more are published in economics journals at various universities.

For example: here's a 30-minute presentation and accompanying research paper on "experience and winning" in the NBA that concludes (among other things) that there isn't a strong statistical relationship between individual player experience and actual playoff wins (again, a counterintuitive conclusion).

https://www.sloansportsconference.com/?p=6125


You'll excuse me if I'm having problems taking you seriously if your contention is that no literature on basketball analysis exists. That's a position that is simply counter to reality.

As an example of someone who's a known statistics-oriented writer on this subject you can look at, for example, this article by John Hollinger from about four years ago.

https://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=Predictions-090107

Writing about Russell Westbrook, OJ Mayo and Derrick Rose he says:

Westbrook also is the youngest of the three, the best defender and the only one who had to change positions upon arriving in the NBA. All of which suggests he's only scratching the surface of his potential -- as does the fact that he has a higher turnover ratio than the other two, which, in a paradoxical twist of logic, is actually a good thing for a rookie. Historically, those with high turnover rates have had much higher rates of improvement in subsequent seasons.

One can confirm this prediction looking backwards by examining Mayo vs. Westbrook's improvement from the rookie year (we'll leave Rose aside for the moment given that the primary story of his career to date involves injury which is a factor that can't be ignored in his case, although it should be noted his career TOV% is essentially identical to his rookie TOV%).

Mayo hasn't substantially improved from his rookie season and his TO% remains essentially identical. (13.8% vs 13.4% for his career, with higher numbers in more recent seasons).

Westbrook is substantially better today than he was as a rookie and his TO% has declined in each full season he's been in the league (rookie year is 17.6% vs. career number of 15.4% and most recent season of 13.2%).

This isn't some crazy thing I just made up, although of course some portion of jazzfanz will always believe anything counterintuitive is.

Think of it like this: good decision making is something that can be taught, unlike height, speed, strength, or freakish leaping ability. Players with those natural gifts can cut down on TOs simply by learning how to play better. Players that come in already making near optimal decisions have already exhausted much of the easier improvement resources that are available to them. Hence, they are closer to the ceiling than the player that has not yet exhausted those resources.
 
Comment was made in the context of player-analysis, and you should know that.



Pls elucidate as to how many of those "146" articles involve the analysis of players, performance-trends, and the like using box scores. If you can find a single published "literature" article involving turnover percentage by an academic journal, I'll pay you $20.

https://econpapers.repec.org/article/bpjjqsprt/v_3a6_3ay_3a2010_3ai_3a3_3an_3a2.htm

Relative Importance of Performance Factors in Winning NBA Games in Regular Season versus Playoffs

Journal of Quantitative Analysis in Sports, 2010, vol. 6, issue 3, pages 1-19

Specifically, we examined the contributions of overall efficiency (offensive and defensive ratings), along with the Four Factors (effective field goal percentage, turnover percentage, rebound percentage, and free throw rate) to winning games in the regular season and the playoffs, using a multiple linear regression and a logistic regression analysis.
3 minutes of work. $20 please.
 
Google Scholar...

FWIW though, that article doesn't address whether a low rookie turnover rate has any bearing on development.

Oh I know that, but all I had to do to redeem a $20 offer was "find a single published "literature" article involving turnover percentage by an academic journal."

I'd say it qualifies.
 
I understand the argument that because he is doing well at the things most people struggle with could potentially mean his overall potential is limited. However the same argument can be made that mastering some of the early test most rookie PG struggle with is a sign of unlimited potential. As those skill are likely to improve with more experience along with the other flaws in his game right now. And even if the TOV% doesn't improve one bit he's still well ahead of overwhelmingly majority of his peers.
 
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