Hayward has agreed to an offer with Hornets

[Stifle Tower]

I'm not reading the full 30 million pages of the thread to find out the deets on the trade kicker.

Can anyone sum up what the trade kicker is and how that impacts the jazz if they match?

Sorry if you've gone over it already.

TIA

There are two "toxic" aspects of the contract:
1. A trade kicker simply makes the contract value go up 15% at the time of the trade for the remainder of the contract. For example, if the Jazz were to match on July 11th and trade him on July 12th, the contract would become 4 years/$72.5M.

2. There is a player opt out after year 3. This is very important because a player with 7 years of NBA experience can get much more money than one at 0-6 years. Gordon is limited to 25% of cap space right now, but can get 30% after 7 years. Technically, the max is calculated as a percentage of BRI, so it's closer to maybe 23%/28% of the cap.

 

[[size/HUGE] fixed [/size]]

Bazemore and Aminu

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Can you imagine the uproar on this board had Lindsey signed Hayward to a MAX deal last summer. I don't think there was ONE person in favor of doing that. Hindsight is great, isn't it?

As for the 2nd-rounder, "meh." It was going to be a draft and stash. The Euros Lindsey liked were probably off the board already. So we gave up a decent 10th/11th guy on the bench for a similar pick next year. It's not that big a deal. And Novak, you're seriously criticizing Lindsey for not holding out for one more 2nd-rounder (I assume that's your problem with the deal)?

Just felt like we wanted 2nd rounders in the Novak deal when we had turned around and basically given away a really good second rounder a week earlier. Plenty of draft and stash guys left. Both deals we pretty meh... but I just thought he was one of those guys who squeezes as much value as he can out of things. I do think he could have got more from Toronto, would have pushed for a first rounder or no deal. We took on 7 M of salary and got a 2016 second rounder. Boston just took on $8 M and got a better player, Zeller, and a first rounder... just saying.

I would think you of all people would hate the Novak deal... It is the difference price wise between a reasonably signed Hayward and a Maxed out Hayward.

 

[Stifle Tower]

And we would have to significantly overpay to get any of them.

Like Atlanta did for Millsap after the market settled down and they swooped in as one of the only teams left with the cap space to get him.

 

[Doublea]

So did the jazz ever give an offer to hayward?

 

[Stifle Tower]

Just felt like we wanted 2nd rounders in the Novak deal when we had turned around and basically given away a really good second rounder a week earlier. Plenty of draft and stash guys left. Both deals we pretty meh... but I just thought he was one of those guys who squeezes as much value as he can out of things. I do think he could have got more from Toronto, would have pushed for a first rounder or no deal. We took on 7 M of salary and got a 2016 second rounder. Boston just took on $8 M and got a better player, Zeller, and a first rounder... just saying.

I would think you of all people would hate the Novak deal... It is the difference price wise between a reasonably signed Hayward and a Maxed out Hayward.

Why? It's 3.6M/per for 2 years.
Jazz are either spending that or giving it away as bonuses to other players if they finish below the floor. $3.6M does not preclude them for doing anything else. It doesn't set a bad precedent for upcoming negotiations with Kanter, Burks, Gobert and Burke.

I suggested the Jazz take Thornton two days ago. Jazz should have pursued it. Yes, I agree; Boston got a great deal.

 

[Stoked]

Like Atlanta did for Millsap after the market settled down and they swooped in as one of the only teams left with the cap space to get him.

So your solution is to just wait everything out and pick up the scraps that no one wanted bad enough?

 

[Stoked]

So did the jazz ever give an offer to hayward?

During the season yes. There were rumblings that they were preparing an offer for free agency but no word on if it was actually delivered.

 

[Hantlers]

Like Atlanta did for Millsap after the market settled down and they swooped in as one of the only teams left with the cap space to get him.

People are more willing to play in Atlanta than they are here.

We suck, and we don't have an ideal location for most people...we will have to overpay to get good players.

 

[Stifle Tower]

So your solution is to just wait everything out and pick up the scraps that no one wanted bad enough?

Millsap was a scrap?
No, my solution is to NOT overpay by $4-$5M/per for players and limit future roster moves.
Giving Hayward the max is a panic move. Jazz don't HAVE to spend the money RIGHT now. There are always trades available at the deadline. There are free agents available this season and next. There are assets to be picked up by using the cap space for salary dumps by other teams. When all the playoff teams have used their cap room, does a player like Deng accept the MLE? Or does he come to Utah if we step in and offer $10M/per? There are a ton of options, including Snyder working with a promising younger player like he did with Carroll. Or even bringing Carroll back next season.

 

[just because]

They should go after the similarly talented Parsons for $12-$13 M even if they match the Hayward offer sheet. Considering that Jodie Meeks just signed a deal for over $8 M per year, I have a hard time seeing Deng getting only $6-$9 million from anyone. I think that this is going to be a crazy offseason. Guys are going to get paid. There's just too much cap space floating around AND the salary cap is going to go up for next several years. Teams are going to have to adjust their thinking accordingly. In just a few short years, the salary cap alone is expected to reach the mark where the LT cap is now. And that doesn't even factor in the new TV contracts. I also think that the NBA should have compensation above and beyond just matching the contract for a RFA. Unprotected first round pick should have to accompany the deal, but that's a different conversation.

The Jazz can't get a LeBron James or Carmello Anthony outright in free agency. They have to draft that guy and then pay him every penny that he's worth when his contract comes due. Until then, they need to draft the best players that they can and keep them around as long as possible. That's why they're going to match this contract. DL and company know what their limitations as a small market team are and they have to play by those rules. If they were winning, some of the rules change. . . but they need to get to that point again first.

I'm not picking on you specifically. There have been lots of people say just sign parsons for 12 mil. With this off season the way it is we would have to offer him a max deal or else Houston would just match it. And I think they would match any offer in the 12 range since everybody agrees he's worth it.

 

[Stifle Tower]

People are more willing to play in Atlanta than they are here.

We suck, and we don't have an ideal location for most people...we will have to overpay to get good players.

So do a host of other cities.
We did pretty well in acquiring Boozer and Okur. The best value is getting players via the draft. The next best value is acquiring up and coming players that will outperform their contracts. The worst value is paying players more than what their on-court value is. I haven't read ONE article which values Hayward as a max player.

 

[dipship31]

Is anyone like me so completely on the fence about this that they just don't care what happens?

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Why? It's 3.6M/per for 2 years.
Jazz are either spending that or giving it away as bonuses to other players if they finish below the floor. $3.6M does not preclude them for doing anything else. It doesn't set a bad precedent for upcoming negotiations with Kanter, Burks, Gobert and Burke.

I suggested the Jazz take Thornton two days ago. Jazz should have pursued it. Yes, I agree; Boston got a great deal.

3.6 M each year for 2 years is the difference between Hayward resigned at a reasonable $12 M per vs. getting the MAX. Personally I'd rather have Hayward at 15.5 M per and some minimum salary guy then have Novak and let Hayward walk because he isn't worth the MAX... make sense?

The bad precedence is wrong... the precedence was set by Cle and Cha being willing to offer that money. The bad precedence was set last year when we weren't able to extend Hayward. Matching has nothing to do with bad precedence at this point.

 

[Fishsticks]

Just felt like we wanted 2nd rounders in the Novak deal when we had turned around and basically given away a really good second rounder a week earlier. Plenty of draft and stash guys left. Both deals we pretty meh... but I just thought he was one of those guys who squeezes as much value as he can out of things. I do think he could have got more from Toronto, would have pushed for a first rounder or no deal. We took on 7 M of salary and got a 2016 second rounder. Boston just took on $8 M and got a better player, Zeller, and a first rounder... just saying.

I would think you of all people would hate the Novak deal... It is the difference price wise between a reasonably signed Hayward and a Maxed out Hayward.

I think you are underestimating the Novak deal. I think DL likes him. He wasn't doing favors for anyone.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Millsap was a scrap?
No, my solution is to NOT overpay by $4-$5M/per for players and limit future roster moves.
Giving Hayward the max is a panic move. Jazz don't HAVE to spend the money RIGHT now. There are always trades available at the deadline. There are free agents available this season and next. There are assets to be picked up by using the cap space for salary dumps by other teams. When all the playoff teams have used their cap room, does a player like Deng accept the MLE? Or does he come to Utah if we step in and offer $10M/per? There are a ton of options, including Snyder working with a promising younger player like he did with Carroll. Or even bringing Carroll back next season.

Matching Hayward does not preclude us from doing either the Deng deal (at or around that price) or a Carroll deal next year.

Also, you don't mind overpaying Novak (essentially what we did with that trade) by a few million, but say no way to overpaying Hayward?

 

[Litany]

Rodney Hood getting up shots.

That stroke.

https://instagram.com/p/qPh90jusnh/

Bye bye Hay


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalkf

 

[Hantlers]

So do a host of other cities.
We did pretty well in acquiring Boozer and Okur. The best value is getting players via the draft. The next best value is acquiring up and coming players that will outperform their contracts. The worst value is paying players more than what their on-court value is. I haven't read ONE article which values Hayward as a max player.

1) Our team was better at that point.
2) We still paid a lot more than everybody else for those players.
3) Nobody is saying that Hayward is worth the max, but sometimes you have to overpay to keep good players, especially when finding a replacement would be difficult.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I think you are underestimating the Novak deal. I think DL likes him. He wasn't doing favors for anyone.

Novak is incredibly one dimensional... If he was a free agent i bet he'd get the minimum. Thornton is a better player than him... when he was dumped the team taking him got a first rounder a good young cheap bench big.

I'm not screaming fire Lindsey or anything, but the consensus around the league was basically Huh? All they go was a second rounder? Same thing when we traded our own second rounder (which I get... we are young too many rookies... blah blah blah), but it seems if he would have had never really planned on exercising that pick that we should have shopped it pre-draft and done a little better.

Both of these deals are fringe deals... long term they don't mean much. I still like DL, just the last few moves have been puzzling.

 

[fishonjazz]

And we would have to significantly overpay to get any of them.

It still answers the question posed by beantown and others