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Are Jazz stuck?

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slc

Well-Known Member
Jazz at #9 are just outside range of getting a certain all star caliber player. They may or may not draft the right player at #9 that becomes an immediate impact type that can help Jazz in his rookie year. Jazz don't seem to have quite enough assets to make the ideal blockbuster type trade that makes them a contender. Dozens and dozens of proposals have been suggested and each one involves some risk or are just too far fetched or unrealistic, etc. A long term contract, a questionable player, etc. Okur being hurt takes him off the table as a legit trade asset. Not enough money to sign a good enough player to put them over the top, etc. Jazz will be a playoff team next season or a borderline lottery team that has no chance of a top three pick next year, etc. Jazz seem to need too many things or moves fall in place to be a legit contender next year or down the road . The odds seem stacked against the Jazz at this point. It seems like a team needs to have one of the top five players in league to get a title and Jazz may never be able to do that, etc. I love this time of year the most though, cause I want to see what the Jazz can pull off each year that may blow us away. :D
 
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Good thoughts, slc. I don't think the Jazz are necessarily "stuck," but it will take some work by KOC and a flexible wallet on the part of Greg Miller to make the team better. And, of course, the mindset that you have to take some risks in order to get better. Thus far, the organization hasn't done much in any of those 3 areas.

1. The biggest move by KOC was trading Giri for Korver - and that was forced upon him by Sloan. OK, so Kevin did maneuver up to get Deron. I'll give him credit for that.

2. Greg exceeded the tax level to keep Millsap. He had to. Letting Paul go would have been a PR nightmare after Larry H and KOC said numerous times over the prior season that the Jazz were prepared to match any reasonable offer for Millsap. But then Greg forced KOC to dump 3 assets (Brewer, Maynor, and Harp's insurance-paid, expiring contract) in exchange for $ and a dubious draft pick. No wonder Deron was pi$$ed.

3. Risk? That's always been a four-letter word in the organization. When was the last time a major trade was made (ummm, never). OK, Humphries for Araujo. Now that was risky business.

Jazz have THREE big assets: sign-and-trade for Boozer, #9 pick, AK's expiring contract and some lesser ones to throw in as needed (like the Memphis pick, next year's #1, Koufos, etc). You could potentially parlay those three big assets into 3 starters and perhaps a decent back-up. Will it happen? I'm not holding my breath.:rolleyes:


A. Jazz will pick the best big man available at #9. KOC will tell us he tried to make a deal, but nothing that was proposed would have made the team better. Aldrich and Monore will be gone, so expect the Jazz to reach for Orton, just like they did for Curtis Borchardt.

B. Boozer will sign with another team. KOC and Greg will make public statements that they really wanted to re-sign Carlos, but Boozer just decided to go in a different direction. Utah will not take on any contracts via a sign-and-trade.

C. Trade deadline will pass with no deal being made for AK. Again, KOC will tell us he tried to make a deal, but nothing that was proposed would have made the team better.

Lather, rinse, repeat with these guys. As long as fans continue to fill the arena, the Millers will continue to turn a profit and there will be no incentive to build a contender.

Prediction: Jazz and Greg Miller are headed down the path the Maloofs went on with the Kings. Some early success, then the owners get cheap, key players go elsewhere and the team starts to steadily decline. Deron will leave because he wants to win (I'm gonna hate seeing him in purple and gold). But I am looking forward to having a 25% chance at the #1 pick in 2016.

Kevin, Greg...please prove me wrong with some bold moves this offseason and at the trade deadline.
 
I dunno how you fix it but your posts are some of the easiest to read here because of it. Anyone who's taken a typography class knows about reader fatigue and line length, and your posts are about the right length. Of course... I guess I could just shrink the window to make everyone elses that size too..
 
No, the Jazz are not stuck.
Of course there is a real amount of risk in a lot of these trade suggestions. Should we just wait until we can pull a Gasol? Should we wait until a big free agent comes to UT?

A move with risk that plays out in our favor is exactly what we need. The Jazz have a lot of assets to move if they are feeling up to it.
 
No, the Jazz are not stuck.
Of course there is a real amount of risk in a lot of these trade suggestions. Should we just wait until we can pull a Gasol? Should we wait until a big free agent comes to UT?

A move with risk that plays out in our favor is exactly what we need. The Jazz have a lot of assets to move if they are feeling up to it.
 
I have always believed that it takes 2 teams getting what they really want to make a deal happen. Almost every trade or deal I have seen put out there by the Jazz fans on all the boards I read all give the Jazz the better end of the deal.
Most of the teams out there are looking out for themselves. And well try to get the best deal they can back. We talk about the Jazz assets, but how may teams out there really want what we are offering? Maybe one or two at the most and even then they what are we going to have to throw in extra by being the one trying to get the deal done.
Remember if your the one out looking for the deal then your the one who is going to pay the higher price almost every time. And most of the time the Jazz aren't willing to pay that price because it doesn't make the team better.
 
GlassEater said:
Jazz have THREE big assets: sign-and-trade for Boozer, #9 pick, AK's expiring contract and some lesser ones to throw in as needed (like the
Kevin, Greg...please prove me wrong with some bold moves this offseason and at the trade deadline.
Click to expand...

Why would teams want to sign and trade for Boozer when they can just sign him? He won't get full max money offers, and with the lockout looming, I doubt teams want to consider six years.

I'd rather keep the #9 pick than trade it alone.

You overvalue AK's expiring. What free agents are out there to bid on in '11? Melo and? Melo may extend, then what happens? That means the only reason to get AK is to dump overpaid, under performing players. That's a GREAT way to make a contender, trading for those guys. Just ask Cleveland.
 
The Jazz need to get a real high-impact player in this draft. They won't get another chance like this. They also need to unload AK's contract to be able to bring in a FA to complete the puzzle. Otherwise, the pieces are fitting nicely. A year from now, Tomic and Fess will look great at the center rotation, Miles and Matthews will still be solid rotation players, as will Milsap. The Jazz need one killer pick in this draft and enough flexibility to get a FA that makes sense for them. If the big isn't there, then get the best wing they can--whether Babbit, George or Aminu.

They'll only be stuck if they screw up this draft.
 
GlassEater said:
Good thoughts, slc. I don't think the Jazz are necessarily "stuck," but it will take some work by KOC and a flexible wallet on the part of Greg Miller to make the team better. And, of course, the mindset that you have to take some risks in order to get better. Thus far, the organization hasn't done much in any of those 3 areas.

1. The biggest move by KOC was trading Giri for Korver - and that was forced upon him by Sloan. OK, so Kevin did maneuver up to get Deron. I'll give him credit for that.

2. Greg exceeded the tax level to keep Millsap. He had to. Letting Paul go would have been a PR nightmare after Larry H and KOC said numerous times over the prior season that the Jazz were prepared to match any reasonable offer for Millsap. But then Greg forced KOC to dump 3 assets (Brewer, Maynor, and Harp's insurance-paid, expiring contract) in exchange for $ and a dubious draft pick. No wonder Deron was pi$$ed.

3. Risk? That's always been a four-letter word in the organization. When was the last time a major trade was made (ummm, never). OK, Humphries for Araujo. Now that was risky business.

Jazz have THREE big assets: sign-and-trade for Boozer, #9 pick, AK's expiring contract and some lesser ones to throw in as needed (like the Memphis pick, next year's #1, Koufos, etc). You could potentially parlay those three big assets into 3 starters and perhaps a decent back-up. Will it happen? I'm not holding my breath.:rolleyes:


A. Jazz will pick the best big man available at #9. KOC will tell us he tried to make a deal, but nothing that was proposed would have made the team better. Aldrich and Monore will be gone, so expect the Jazz to reach for Orton, just like they did for Curtis Borchardt.

B. Boozer will sign with another team. KOC and Greg will make public statements that they really wanted to re-sign Carlos, but Boozer just decided to go in a different direction. Utah will not take on any contracts via a sign-and-trade.

C. Trade deadline will pass with no deal being made for AK. Again, KOC will tell us he tried to make a deal, but nothing that was proposed would have made the team better.

Lather, rinse, repeat with these guys. As long as fans continue to fill the arena, the Millers will continue to turn a profit and there will be no incentive to build a contender.

Prediction: Jazz and Greg Miller are headed down the path the Maloofs went on with the Kings. Some early success, then the owners get cheap, key players go elsewhere and the team starts to steadily decline. Deron will leave because he wants to win (I'm gonna hate seeing him in purple and gold). But I am looking forward to having a 25% chance at the #1 pick in 2016.

Kevin, Greg...please prove me wrong with some bold moves this offseason and at the trade deadline.
Click to expand...

With all the talk about how big of a splash we can make this offseason, this is the more likely scenario. Of course, everyone will say, come training camp when we have the same team, that "Andrei's contract will have more value at the deadline" which will come and pass with Andrei's contract simply expiring. We'll still be over the cap. We won't land any difference-making free agents and we won't have the assets for trades. We dodged a huge bullet in our transition from Stockton and Malone to where we are now. I credit this to Larry and Jerry. I think Kevin and Greg take this for granted. Larry was self-made and respected the hard work it took him to get where he's at. Greg, on the other hand, hasn't given me any reason to believe that he has any idea what's going on and honestly thinks he and Kevin can take the passive way to maintaining competitiveness. They are driving this franchise into rebuilding... and not the rebuilding we had before (think Clippers).

Their direction is not one Larry would support, but I think they are naive enough to believe that they are following what Larry would do. Larry was conservative, but he wasn't stupid. The current front office is showing much of the former with much more of the latter.
 
infection said:
With all the talk about how big of a splash we can make this offseason, this is the more likely scenario. Of course, everyone will say, come training camp when we have the same team, that "Andrei's contract will have more value at the deadline" which will come and pass with Andrei's contract simply expiring. We'll still be over the cap. We won't land any difference-making free agents and we won't have the assets for trades. We dodged a huge bullet in our transition from Stockton and Malone to where we are now. I credit this to Larry and Jerry. I think Kevin and Greg take this for granted. Larry was self-made and respected the hard work it took him to get where he's at. Greg, on the other hand, hasn't given me any reason to believe that he has any idea what's going on and honestly thinks he and Kevin can take the passive way to maintaining competitiveness. They are driving this franchise into rebuilding... and not the rebuilding we had before (think Clippers).

Their direction is not one Larry would support, but I think they are naive enough to believe that they are following what Larry would do. Larry was conservative, but he wasn't stupid. The current front office is showing much of the former with much more of the latter.
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Re-signing Okur was stupid. I was baffled. He's a terrible defender, and MO's outside shooting is less special now that that Utah has players from 1 to 3 who can make an outside shot. But the former administration foolishly re-signed Kirilenko to a max contract when they simply could've waited a year and STILL signed him to a max deal (but for 5 years instead of 7 years, but ideally for less money), so I don't see how the Jazz are worse off from an owner's standpoint. Neither of them has had the brass ones (or at least the sense) to tell Jerry Sloan to enforce his own defense-first philosophy. Boozer has yelped and played matador D for years, hiding behind his stats to justify sometimes game-losing minutes on the floor. In other words, if the Jazz are "stuck", it's partly out of laziness, ignorance, or loyalty (i.e., to Jerry and maybe to Memo). At least baby Greg opened up the man-purse strings to go over the cap--something the Loose Lips Larry rarely if ever did.

Years ago, there was a rumored trade of Kirilenko for Marion (and maybe adding Millsap, too). Are/were the Jazz too "conservative" for not making that trade? Do you consider the trade for Deron's pick nonconservative?

A Gasol-like trade simply isn't going to happen because Utah doesn't have a Jerry West running another team, ready to scratch Utah's back. KOC's relationship with Philly was about as good as it's gonna get, and it yielded Utah Korver and Fesenko. Now the coaching staff has to simply decide to develop the latter player, giving him substantially more than the average of 3 or 4 minutes per game among the games in which he was eligible to play.
 
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Let me start by saying no AK is not worth his contract but I have a question, a lot of people say we need to move AK's contract but also say the Miller's/FO is cheap but if they don't move his contract and live with the mistake they made doesn't that suggest the opposite?
Also for the counter point of they aren't moving him because they're conservative my question is who could they get that is better? My point being as long as they believe they can resign him once his contract is up and there isn't a move that is better then AK, the Jazz need length and he is longer then anybody on the team save Fess and Kosta and plays D. I just don't see a move that makes sense IMO.
 
//r00t 4 Jazz said:
Let me start by saying no AK is not worth his contract but I have a question, a lot of people say we need to move AK's contract but also say the Miller's/FO is cheap but if they don't move his contract and live with the mistake they made doesn't that suggest the opposite?
Also for the counter point of they aren't moving him because they're conservative my question is who could they get that is better? My point being as long as they believe they can resign him once his contract is up and there isn't a move that is better then AK, the Jazz need length and he is longer then anybody on the team save Fess and Kosta and plays D. I just don't see a move that makes sense IMO.
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Unfortunately we can only speculate on who the Jazz could get for Kirilenko. With the tougher economic situation, maybe teams would want to trade someone for Kiri to get rid of a contract. I still wonder if Philly would trade Kiri and #9 for Brand and #2/#3. But probably not, because even though it's a real financial benefit, Evan Turner has more fan draw than a bouncy Kiri.

Easy for me to say, but I think that I'd do that deal if I were the Jazz. Brand isn't a 20/10 player anymore, but he could be a 15/8/1.5 player in the Jazz system (with the 1.5 = blocks, perhaps as important as the other two averages, given that it imprecisely implies better defense than Boozer). Then again, maybe it's simply too much money for Utah to commit to.

Just for a change of personnel and attitude, I'd prefer Brand over Booze. Boozer has had multiple chances to do SOMETHING in the playoffs vs. the Lakers, and he has failed. Give someone else a opportunity, especially if it yields a top 3 pick also. Talk about a way to make Deron happy.
 
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