Fixing the Defense

[LogGrad98]

I thought some of these guys were supposed to be better this year? Here is our basic defensive ratings for each person on the Jazz. Highlighted a few interesting ones. Note that among the players who actually get playing time, Mitchell and O'Neale have the worst DRTG on the team. And Butler simply does not get enough PT.



Here is the RAPTOR metric, which is pretty solid in general. Again here Donovan is easily the worst defensive player on the team for the regular players, and Butler doesn't get enough PT, from a defensive standpoint.



Ok here is one more. The LEBRON, sorted for the defensive impact. This shows we only have 4 players who have a positive impact on the game from a defensive standpoint. Again, Mitchell near the bottom. Clarkson hit hard on this one.




So, can we get any better here? We are middle of the pack realistically on our D in the league, and as such we have some glaring holes that can be exploited by the teams with the personnel to do so. Also our "best" player, Mitchell, is a solid liability on defense, not just neutral, but flat out bad.

I think it starts with coaching, and with us, the defensive coaching is a big problem in this regard. Quin does not have great defensive schemes and he doesn't get his players playing D within the schemes he does have. Funnel to Rudy is a bad plan for the playoffs, but we have seen this is the only D we know how to play. With Rudy out we have reverted to basic defensive sets that are run in college, nothing adapted to the challenge at hand nor any focus from our key personnel.

Individual effort is a problem. This is Mitchell to a T, he either doesn't understand how to play defense or he just doesn't. To be honest I am not sure which it is. Last night he looked more than lost, he looked complete disinterested in playing any semblance of D other than gambling in the passing lanes. I get that last night was a challenge, but he has looked this way most of the season. He gets lost easily, gets hung up on screens, doesn't rotate well, doesn't stay in front of his man. In fact as often as not he lets his guy by then tries to slip out for the offensive end anticipating Gobert to clean up the ****.


So is there a fix? Is our defense sufficient to carry us further in the playoffs this year? I don't think so. I know this will turn into another trade thread, but I think we need some light on the real defensive impact of our individual players. They need to be held accountable. Quin needs to step up. It is bigger than just adding another guy that could defend better, imho.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Get Gobert back.

Convince Mitchell has to play both sides of the ball as a team player, not an individual.

Trade Clarkson for someone with at least average defensive ability.

Defense would be fixed.

 

[SoberasHotRod]

On our team, some of the defensive metrics end up getting skewed to who is playing with Gobert the most, but that's just something to keep in mind. The other defenisve metric I've looked at is the difference in efg% for the player being gaurded by our guys:

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

On our team, some of the defensive metrics end up getting skewed to who is playing with Gobert the most, but that's just something to keep in mind. The other defenisve metric I've looked at is the difference in efg% for the player being gaurded by our guys:
View attachment 11570

****ing insane Mitchell is last (by a huge margin) when he gets the easiest matchup.

Cant wait til the day we get that huge package for him in a trade.

 

[slc]

Best time to trade anyone is before they start publicly asking to be traded

 

[SoberasHotRod]

Focusing on our starting/closing lineup the metrics show pretty well that Gobert is the best defensive player on the planet, that Mike and Royce are average to good defenders, and that Bogey and Mitchell are horrendous defenders.

I don't think you can have two horrendous defenders on the floor at the same time and expect to get stops against good teams. Especially teams that can pull Gobert out of the paint and reduce his defensive impact. Since Mitchell will be part of the closing lineup, this is why I think we need a defensive upgrade to Bogey's spot. Basing things off these metrics, Gay would be a huge defensive upgrade to Bogey in the closing lineup.

I don't think we can be a truly great defensive team unless Mitchell gets way better. I really don't have any hope that he becomes a good team defender, his instincts/awareness are just too low. I do think he can learn that it is possible to give effort on both offense and defense, and he has potential to be a decent man defender.

 

[Hekate]

I am beginning to think Mitchell is a worse defender than Clarkson, yeeeeeesh.

 

[LogGrad98]

I am beginning to think Mitchell is a worse defender than Clarkson, yeeeeeesh.

By some metrics he is. Rolling all of them together they are last and next-to-last on our team for defense, and it is a flip of the coin which is which.

 

[LogGrad98]

So another big question with this, does Mitchell hurt us more than he helps, overall. I know he has had some big moments, but the on-off stuff I have seen has him more or less breaking even, so no real impact on vs off the floor for him, and by some measures we are better with him off the floor. This is probably skewed by our stronger bench play this year, but still. Gobert's on/off metrics are crazy. We are substantially worse with him off the floor, at an all-world level. Without Gobert we are a fringe playoff team, with him we are a fringe contender. But does, or can, Mitchell raise the ceiling enough to get us a ring? I am beginning to really doubt it.

 

[LoPo]

So another big question with this, does Mitchell hurt us more than he helps, overall. I know he has had some big moments, but the on-off stuff I have seen has him more or less breaking even, so no real impact on vs off the floor for him, and by some measures we are better with him off the floor. This is probably skewed by our stronger bench play this year, but still. Gobert's on/off metrics are crazy. We are substantially worse with him off the floor, at an all-world level. Without Gobert we are a fringe playoff team, with him we are a fringe contender. But does, or can, Mitchell raise the ceiling enough to get us a ring? I am beginning to really doubt it.

Rudy and Don are amazing in their own ways, but you don't win a title with 2 great players. You win titles with a couple playoff superstars and a good supporting cast. Or a team with 5 or 6 great players.

We do not have enough great players. Rudy is not a playoff superstar and Don doesn't play the defense to warrant him to be considered one either.

Our roster construction was dreadful. We all know we needed a guy like Jrue or Brogdon yet we went out and got Conley.

Sent from my SM-G970U using JazzFanz mobile app

 

[Hekate]

Rudy and Don are amazing in their own ways, but you don't win a title with 2 great players. You win titles with a couple playoff superstars and a good supporting cast. Or a team with 5 or 6 great players.

We do not have enough great players. Rudy is not a playoff superstar and Don doesn't play the defense to warrant him to be considered one either.

Our roster construction was dreadful. We all know we needed a guy like Jrue or Brogdon yet we went out and got Conley.

Sent from my SM-G970U using JazzFanz mobile app

Why do you think we needed Brogdon?

 

[SoberasHotRod]

So another big question with this, does Mitchell hurt us more than he helps, overall. I know he has had some big moments, but the on-off stuff I have seen has him more or less breaking even, so no real impact on vs off the floor for him, and by some measures we are better with him off the floor. This is probably skewed by our stronger bench play this year, but still. Gobert's on/off metrics are crazy. We are substantially worse with him off the floor, at an all-world level. Without Gobert we are a fringe playoff team, with him we are a fringe contender. But does, or can, Mitchell raise the ceiling enough to get us a ring? I am beginning to really doubt it.

A related question would be: Is Donovan's offense good enough that he can still be efficient if we replaced his offensively good teammates with better defenders/worse offensive players. In other words, can Donovan be offensively efficient in a slightly less open floor in order to incorporate better defenders?

I think the answer is yes. I think Donovan is good enough to get us a ring with some different complementary players. I think he's the best or one of they best pick and roll guards in the NBA right now. He is currently looking worse than normal because of Gobert being out.

 

[Thee Idiotic Minivan K]

Rudy and Don are amazing in their own ways, but you don't win a title with 2 great players. You win titles with a couple playoff superstars and a good supporting cast. Or a team with 5 or 6 great players.

We do not have enough great players. Rudy is not a playoff superstar and Don doesn't play the defense to warrant him to be considered one either.

Our roster construction was dreadful. We all know we needed a guy like Jrue or Brogdon yet we went out and got Conley.

Sent from my SM-G970U using JazzFanz mobile app

OMG!!! You clamored for the jazz to get Conley the moment rumors came out. Lmao

 

[KqWIN]

A related question would be: Is Donovan's offense good enough that he can still be efficient if we replaced his offensively good teammates with better defenders/worse offensive players. In other words, can Donovan be offensively efficient in a slightly less open floor in order to incorporate better defenders?

I think the answer is yes. I think Donovan is good enough to get us a ring with some different complementary players. I think he's the best or one of they best pick and roll guards in the NBA right now. He is currently looking worse than normal because of Gobert being out.

Donovan is a superstar offensive talent. One of the reasons why I’ve been pushing for a trade for so long is that he has carried us to an elite offense despite being a man down back to back playoffs. We were elite without Bogey against DEN and elite against LAC without Conley. The problem is that we couldn’t defend. This has reflected what has happened in the RS the past couple of years as well. We actually have a better record when someone is out.

There shouldn’t be a hesitation to trade some offense for some defense. We rely on Rudy so much defensively….but Don has gotten good enough where we can lean on him to carry more on offense and move some pieces to give Rudy help.

 

[TheGoldStandard]

Donovan is a superstar offensive talent. One of the reasons why I’ve been pushing for a trade for so long is that he has carried us to an elite offense despite being a man down back to back playoffs. We were elite without Bogey against DEN and elite against LAC without Conley. The problem is that we couldn’t defend. This has reflected what has happened in the RS the past couple of years as well. We actually have a better record when someone is out.

There shouldn’t be a hesitation to trade some offense for some defense. We rely on Rudy so much defensively….but Don has gotten good enough where we can lean on him to carry more on offense and move some pieces to give Rudy help.

I would keep Rudy, Don and Bogey (don't think we can replace him for better value as he has been so consistent from 3 this year). Anyone else should be on the table for trade.

 

[LoPo]

OMG!!! You clamored for the jazz to get Conley the moment rumors came out. Lmao

No I didn't. I was anti-Conley the entire time. The only time I warmed to the Conley deal was when it was already done and we had gone and gotten Bojan. I saw it as an all or nothing move. I chose to try to be positive. I was still pushing for additional perimeter defenders. I have been pushing for perimeter defenders since we chose Burks over Kawhi.

 

[Thee Idiotic Minivan K]

No I didn't. I was anti-Conley the entire time. The only time I warmed to the Conley deal was when it was already done and we had gone and gotten Bojan. I saw it as an all or nothing move. I chose to try to be positive. I was still pushing for additional perimeter defenders. I have been pushing for perimeter defenders since we chose Burks over Kawhi.

I’m pretty sure you were all for it from the beginning, point is you wanted it now your blasting the jazz for getting him over others. Lol

 

[LoPo]

I’m pretty sure you were all for it from the beginning, point is you wanted it now your blasting the jazz for getting him over others. Lol

I NEVER WANTED CONLEY. I wanted the ball in Don's hands so he could develop running the offense. I thought that he and Ingles were plenty to run the offense if we got another defender to join them.

It's just logical. Conley and Don were a terrible combination.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

I NEVER WANTED CONLEY. I wanted the ball in Don's hands so he could develop running the offense. I thought that he and Ingles were plenty to run the offense if we got another defender to join them.

It's just logical. Conley and Don were a terrible combination.

So terrible it resulted in one of the best offenses in the history of the NBA...

 

[LoPo]

So terrible it resulted in one of the best offenses in the history of the NBA...

Because regular season accomplishments are what we are going for...