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Primer on Government Spending

babe

Well-Known Member
VinylOne, Catracho, Franklin. . . . I found my book by Heilbroner and Bernstein from 1963.

They do state that deficit spending should not be a permanent policy, but address the issue to assuage fears we hear even today about leaving our children to pay our debts with assurances that they, too, will be "paying one another back", on the confidence that treasury notes will be commonly held by We the People.

That was before we exported our industries and jobs, and before some foreign investors became prominent purchasors at T-auctions. And before some OPEC countries started hemming and hawing about denominating the price of oil in something besides the dollar, and before China's pres said the dollar has had its day.

One of the books I read way back in high school was about how international trade benefits everybody, was that Adam Smith on the Wealth of Nations?

So here's my case, which amazingly even Paul Krugman seems to think has some merit at this particular point of time, though clearly he would think this is not the best of all possible worlds.

Our founding fathers, smarting from being abused by the influential British Far East Trading Company, whose influence with King George produced some trade regulations favorable to the Company, thought they needed to protect America/Americans from this international corporate. So they stated that the government should be supported by the tariffs, and gave the Federal gov the power to regulate interstate commerce as a tool to prevent outside corporate/merchants to seek advantage by dividing the US and pitting one state against another. . . . this has been the design of British interests during the Articles of Confederation days, and was the proximate cause of the Constitutional Convention.

Have we come to a place where we need tariffs to jump start our economy and help to make sure our deficit spending's benefits, the stimulus intended, can be kept here?

What do we need to do to strengthen our dollar and stimulate our economy?
 
I'm almost to the point of giving up on combating the notion that we've exported all our jobs. The numbers simply don't support it. The notion has been passed on so long that it's become a thread in the fabric of our society.

I'm all for keeping the money at home. However, your tariff idea is will cause more harm than good. If you want to collapse world trade in a beggar-thy-neighbor fight and lose the dollar's world reserve currency status then have at it. Get ready for inflation like you couldn't dream of and a much lower standard of living for all. It's up to each of us to decide if this is a trade off we want.

I'll stick with QE as it has the same goal but is a little softer on political backlash at this point and doesn't violate WTO regulations.

and before China's pres said the dollar has had its day.

The Chinese are advocating their own interests. I don't give any credibility to their rhetoric. They want to control their people. They keep the citizenry poor by subsidizing exports, and do it by purchasing dollars. Then, they bitch at us for borrowing the money from them and running current account deficits. They're the problem and they know it, but they want their cake (exports) and to eat it too (no dollar domination which they support through Treasury purchases). **** 'em.

Quit listening to the Chinese and give our leaders a try instead. It'll be a good day in finance when China "dumps" dollars. We have nothing to worry about.
 
I just want to throw in there, regarding how much debt China holds over the US; funny thing about debts, you have to be able to collect. China has basically been letting the school bully "borrow" lunch money from them, and a lot of it.
 
I just want to throw in there, regarding how much debt China holds over the US; funny thing about debts, you have to be able to collect. China has basically been letting the school bully "borrow" lunch money from them, and a lot of it.

Nada. It's the school bully kicking the **** out of kids and taking their money, and loaning it to the school next door. Again, America isn't the problem here.

China is free to spend all those accumulated dollars on American goods any time they choose. This would go a long way to curing their poverty problems. If they did this then they'd lose all their reason to bitch about us.
 
Anybody read the article in Fortune on Jim Chanos's thoughts on China's potential real estate bubble?
 
Nada. It's the school bully kicking the **** out of kids and taking their money, and loaning it to the school next door. Again, America isn't the problem here.

China is free to spend all those accumulated dollars on American goods any time they choose. This would go a long way to curing their poverty problems. If they did this then they'd lose all their reason to bitch about us.

My only point is that China's ability to control us via our debt to them is completely dependent on their ability to actually collect their money.

But could China be any more of a living contradiction to itself? How do they rationalize what they are?
 
I'm almost to the point of giving up on combating the notion that we've exported all our jobs. The numbers simply don't support it. The notion has been passed on so long that it's become a thread in the fabric of our society.

I'm all for keeping the money at home. However, your tariff idea is will cause more harm than good. If you want to collapse world trade in a beggar-thy-neighbor fight and lose the dollar's world reserve currency status then have at it. Get ready for inflation like you couldn't dream of and a much lower standard of living for all. It's up to each of us to decide if this is a trade off we want.

I'll stick with QE as it has the same goal but is a little softer on political backlash at this point and doesn't violate WTO regulations.



The Chinese are advocating their own interests. I don't give any credibility to their rhetoric. They want to control their people. They keep the citizenry poor by subsidizing exports, and do it by purchasing dollars. Then, they bitch at us for borrowing the money from them and running current account deficits. They're the problem and they know it, but they want their cake (exports) and to eat it too (no dollar domination which they support through Treasury purchases). **** 'em.

Quit listening to the Chinese and give our leaders a try instead. It'll be a good day in finance when China "dumps" dollars. We have nothing to worry about.

There is some truth in that (bold). I think contraction and the loss of many small businesses account for a large share of lost jobs. However, large companies have been moving some jobs out of the country. I worked as a senior logistics manager for Cummins Diesel Engines until 2009. Then the economy really started to slide and Cummins felt the heat as part of the beleaguered auto industry, but without the benefit of a hand-out like the other larger car companies. As a result they laid off about 20% of their workforce world wide and I know for a fact they shut down at least 4 facilities in North American with about 4k employees and moved the manufacturing to their facilities in Mexico.

Side note: they also shut down the distribution facility I was in charge of, so I spent the better part of 2009 and 2010 looking for a job along with tons of other mid- to senior-level managers.
 
There is some truth in that (bold). I think contraction and the loss of many small businesses account for a large share of lost jobs. However, large companies have been moving some jobs out of the country. I worked as a senior logistics manager for Cummins Diesel Engines until 2009. Then the economy really started to slide and Cummins felt the heat as part of the beleaguered auto industry, but without the benefit of a hand-out like the other larger car companies. As a result they laid off about 20% of their workforce world wide and I know for a fact they shut down at least 4 facilities in North American with about 4k employees and moved the manufacturing to their facilities in Mexico.

Side note: they also shut down the distribution facility I was in charge of, so I spent the better part of 2009 and 2010 looking for a job along with tons of other mid- to senior-level managers.

Sure we lose some jobs, but we gains some jobs as a result. You have to look on balance. The problem when politics gets involved is we tend to focus too heavily on one side of the equation and forget the other all together. What you do to one side of the equation affects the other. Current Account Balance/Balance of Payments has an equal sign in it.

If we lose jobs and replace the product with a cheaper import then we will create a job elsewhere. The money doesn't disappear, it just transfers to another area and the US standard of living is improved. How do you think health care has become such a huge % of GDP? I doubt it would have been possible without trading all these primitive jobs for service jobs in health.

That we've outsourced our manufacturing is the biggest lie of them all. US manufacturing output has increased every year for 50 years (excepting 2 years if I remember correctly). The "problem" is we've lost jobs to innovation. We're making more with less. Again, US standard of living improves as the money saved goes into other services, etc. It doesn't disappear.

A lot of the jobs lost to Mexico will feed back as trade grows. We "lose jobs" but trade more. How have we lost jobs when we're making and selling more to Mexico?

A lot of the jobs lost to China increase capital inflows. The current account has to balance. Deficits are offset by capital inflows to the penny. Some of that money comes back as debt financing and some comes back as investment. The investment portion creates jobs and the deficit portion creates jobs. Meanwhile, China is subsidizing our consumption to the expense of their own poor citizens. Again, the US standard of living has been increased.

The problem with the deficit is it acts like a hole in the bottom of a bucket of water. You can only fill the bucket up so fast, no matter how big the hole becomes. When the bucket drains too much we need an additional source of water (liquidity) to fill the gap. Our central bank decides to feed China (among others) a dose of their own medicine and starts the water factory full speed. We call it Quantitative Easing and it's a beautiful remedy to the current account imbalances.

One final note: The creditor nations tend to be the ones hit hardest when the balance of payments goes back toward neutral. Examples are Japan post Plaza Accord and US post 1929. China is in the worry chair, not the US.
 
I'm just old-fashioned enough to want to have the stuff I use made nearby if possible. However, several decades ago I was in the Philippines for a while, and I saw the reality that these people can do anything we can do. And I saw children working in very bad labor-intensive "jobs" and still the families could hardly buy rice. I knew in my heart that there would have to be some adjustments to "the way things are". How can we forever mainstain so favorable a standing in currency exchange that I could earn a "fortune", really a few thousand dollars, washing dishes in a greasy spoon joint in a tourist trap, and then live like a king on my savings for a few years abroad?

I can see what you're saying about how, if the Chinese encouraged/allowed more buying from America to repatriate our dollars and get stuff instead, they would enjoy even more buying from us of what they produce.

One of the problems I see is inequity in labor standards/environmental practice that has just exported our problems to China. Can't we do anything to get a more even playing field.
 
How about creating an atmosphere that rewards companies for not heading overseas?

So basically we'd need to lower the minimum wage to $3.00 per hour, get rid of of the 40 hour work week, and unload everyone off health insurance and onto some government source/let them go uninsured?
 
So basically we'd need to lower the minimum wage to $3.00 per hour, get rid of of the 40 hour work week, and unload everyone off health insurance and onto some government source/let them go uninsured?

$3.00 seems generous. And don't we already have things in place to reward companies for keeping things in house?
 
I feel bad for the people that can't read franklin's posts and mentally call ******** on almost every point.

The key point that he made that should be completely disregarded is that capital inflows makes up for lost jobs. It doesn't. That's one of the biggest reasons we are in the current position that we are. The goal in trade is always to get as close to equilibrium as you can. If you can run surplus, even better. But all capital inflows do is lead to more servitude. It's debt. China needs us only on account of faster growth. If they stopped trading with the US completely and actually started consuming their own production, they would still grow at a healthy rate, while the US economy would completely crash. The US can't win this war. The economy switched from creating things that matter to things that don't matter, and the transition back would take decades. Look at what is defined as "output" now in the US. You will laugh your *** off. Just because they are able to get away with it at the moment through pump and dump scams(for that is all QE2 is - banksters making more money at the behest of the taxpayer), doesn't mean it will work tomorrow. It's bad economics, and you always get punished for bad economics. The fact that we are still floating, only means we are going to pay a bigger price when **** hits the fan.

Why do you think all of these CEOs met with Barak on the 15th of December? They are trying to pull their money in their offshore accounts back into the United States as close to tax free as possible so they can buy more of our property when the economy crashes. QE is just buying them time. You live in a fascist world folks, the sooner you admit it the better.

Multi-lateral default and currency devaluation is our future. Anybody that tells you otherwise is lying.
 
$3.00 seems generous. And don't we already have things in place to reward companies for keeping things in house?

Yes.

But it's hilarious when people complain about outsourcing. Many of the jobs outsourced weren't jobs that Americans were making careers at. Telemarketing, Customer Service, etc.
Those are were, such as steel, clothes, and car manufacturing were just too expensive to operate here. It's not because of Unions or any of that BS. It's that it costs 200k+ to get a home here in the USA. It takes less than 20k to buy a home in China. Cost of living is so much cheaper in other places of the world that salaries can be lower as well.

Take into effect that had those jobs stayed here, we'd all be paying much more for goods and services.

Face it, companies from steel to clothes will go where the labor is cheapest. We (Americans) aren't cheap labor anymore. Perhaps we will here in a century...

Tax cuts for those companies aren't helping. If anything, it's counterproductive. They're handouts for companies to create jobs elsewhere.
 
I feel bad for the people that can't read franklin's posts and mentally call ******** on almost every point.

Check this out, bro. I'm like totally going to sneak into this super secret place called the Bohemian Grove where like senators and stuff go to worship the devil. It's packed with the people who really run the universe, otherwise known as the New World Order. This place is super secret and stuff, so you can't like tell anyone we're doing this ok? There are billionaires and really powerful people there, so, security is pretty damn loose. We can just sneak right in the back door with cameras and everything. All we have to do is dress up like a Trojan Horse or a pizza man. Super simple stuff. Then, afterward, we're going to make documentary on how we filmed them worshipping the devil. I know they do it there before I even go. For sure. They're NWO dudes, they worship the devil. Now we just have to find the proof on film and release it to the blind sheeple of the world in a fanatical documentary.

Cool stuff, eh bro? Right on dude.
 
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