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I know there are a lot of LDS people here

Is this a good place to post all the recent studies about how raising kids secular might make them better people? Just in case people are afraid to leave a religion because of raising kids:

https://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-...-secular-parenting-20150115-story.html#page=1

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danth...hout-religion-show-more-empathy-and-kindness/

I don't buy into one way or the other making "better" people. It's not a competition.

But if someone feels leaving a religion is right for their family they should leave it.
 
obviously, the core of a religious belief system involves the issues of human nature and human conduct and human belief. Religion is invoked to provide answers which Science has not effectively provided. All Science can do is provide data and invoke explanations based on reason. Religion is necessary to address issues like "Love", "Hope", and other sentimental notions necessary to our happiness.

If all people wanted were a tightly logical system of law, we wouldn't need religion either.

No it's not. It may function that way but it isn't "necessary". Love, hope, etc can be addressed, appreciated, and understood just fine without religion.
 
I have a question, and it's not just LDS. It's a lot of different churches.

I don't get the exclusion of alcohol. We obviously know that Jesus never sinned. Jesus drank wine. Sooo why can't we drink? Doesn't make sense.

The Word of Wisdom, section 89 of the Doctrine and Covenants allows you to drink beer. It says:

Nevertheless, wheat for man, and corn for the ox, and oats for the horse, and rye for the fowls and for swine, and for all beasts of the field, and barley for all useful animals, and for mild drinks, as also other grain.

What happened is that the LDS Church was run from the US and into Mexico and they were the "weird polygamy people." Baptism rates were near zero for the Church. Then prohibition came along and the Church could "sell" the "we don't drink liquor and have never done that. Come be a good Christian with us" angle. That morphed from no hard liquor into no beer.

There has never been revelation on this topic. The prophet has never said, "Thus saith the Lord, no beers during the ball game". It changed culturally and grew into what it is today. If there had been revelation, there would have been an amendment to the D&C with another section or changing of the words. That hasn't happened.

Here is the scripture on wine and hard liquor:

That inasmuch as any man drinketh wine or strong drink among you, behold it is not good, neither meet in the sight of your Father, only in assembling yourselves together to offer up your sacraments before him.

6 And, behold, this should be wine, yea, pure wine of the grape of the vine, of your own make.

7 And, again, strong drinks are not for the belly, but for the washing of your bodies.

Even that says that wine is ok for sacrament.
 
Yes, that was my example I posted above. I think that's a legitimate comparison.



Well, obesity can have many factors. But using alcohol/tobacco/drugs is pretty much only from a conscious decision on the part of the user.



Coming to this country illegally is not a felony.



Yes, in the end, you will be responsible for how you stand before God. So, while I obviously believe in the LDS church, by all means you should do what you personally feel helps you be the "goodest" person you can be.

It's still illegal and the Church puts people who are knowingly breaking the law into positions of authority.

Also, do you believe that every member of the quorum of the 12 has pituitary issues? Come on now. Overeating

is pretty much only from a conscious decision on the part of the user.

Finally, what is your point in quotating "goodest" and using a childlike phrase?
 
Fair enough, either way kids in secular or atheist households are growing up as good nice people who contribute to society. Religion is not needed to raise good kids and be a close family.


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They should just make a policy that if parents have sinned kids can't get baptized until 18. Then it's kind of a real choice. This policy definitely ranks acting on being gay as one of the worse sins you can commit in Mormonism.

All religions should be more definitive in their stances and stick to them regardless of societal pressure. This would make it easier for people to decide if they are in or out.

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Fair enough, either way kids in secular or atheist households are growing up as good nice people who contribute to society. Religion is not needed to raise good kids and be a close family.


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On this we absolutely agree.
 
They should just make a policy that if parents have sinned kids can't get baptized until 18. Then it's kind of a real choice. This policy definitely ranks acting on being gay as one of the worse sins you can commit in Mormonism.

All religions should be more definitive in their stances and stick to them regardless of societal pressure. This would make it easier for people to decide if they are in or out.

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Well then everybody would wait until 18. I don't see the need for an age limit, or having it depend on your parents. I don't think you disagree with that though.
 
I'm not sure I can continue to support an organization that allows one sin to be treated one way (allowing parents who fornicate to have their children baptized) but not another.

That is another thing I just thought of. If a male and female are cohabiting together and not married, the church will allow their children to be baptized before 18 but not a homosexual partner.

It's the inconsistencies that bother me. Especially when the inconsistencies are based on bigotry.
I just wanted to comment on the bold statement that has been mentioned a few times in this thread.

This statement in my experience is not true, that children of a male and female living together are allowed to be baptized without thought of the family situation. This goes for many of the other family situations that exist, that of a child with both parents that are not members of the LDS church, one parent is a member while the other parent is not, or even both parents are members but do not attend regularly or often.

In all of these situations my understanding is that there would have to be special permission given at some level, possibly the Stake President or higher, in order to get approval for baptism.
The reasoning behind this has less to do with sins of parents as it does of having a stable and supportive environment for the child that wants to be baptized into the church. If there is not a supportive home environment to being a member of the church and living by the teachings, then it is most likely not the best time to be baptized. It’s very very hard for children to be active members of the church without parent and family support.

This gets to the portion of the issue where the parents are currently not living in a way to be in line with the LDS church teachings. I have seen parents be required to be married in order to join the church, but that is usually when the parents are joining as well. In my opinion this has more to do with keeping families strong whether in or out of the church and giving people the best opportunity to succeed at living the teachings than “meting out punishment”.

I have seen delays in children being baptized many times for parents to make changes before a child is allowed to be baptized. What is the point of baptizing a child if the odds are really high in favor of the child not having support to live the LDS doctrine? Baptism is a gateway to a way of life, it’s not the end of any road, but a beginning.

This is not bigotry, this is policy enacted to protect people.

It is better to not be baptized, than to be baptized knowing full well there is little chance that person will be able to live up to the covenants made at that baptism. When you are baptized, you promise certain things, and children need the support of parents and families in order to keep those covenants.

I hope my rambling ideas/post makes even half the points I intended to make even if not as well worded as I would like.
 
You are operating on a mistaken assumption on how LDS believe revelation to church leaders work. Yes, direct revelation comes sometimes, and when God has messages to reveal to the entire world we believe it will come through the prophet. But it's not like we believe Jesus and Pres. Monson have a weekly meeting Fridays at 11 am.

One would think that if God cared enough to reveal the BoM so that His true and proper church could exist, that He would care enough with how His true and proper church is ran today. It's not like giving revelation is difficult to God, one could say He's certainly more than capable. It just doesn't make sense to me.
 
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