Conley Benched

[rjfan]

yeah, that's why I said i wish we hadn't paid 30mil on a player who is "not bad" and instead could use those extra bucks to bring in a few more 3D guys

Well, I'm totally pointing out that there were 25mil that neither were playing D, draining 3s or having Conley scoring. 25mil is enough money for two role players.

What we do going forward with this roster is a task for the front office on the offseason, they really need to make some adjustments. Conley is overpaid ? Yes, he is. But Ingles and Clarkson also need to earn their money, and they didn't tonight, and for role players i'd say we're not in the right path when they can't be consistent and take most of the same flaws of the biggers contracts (not only Conley 32, but also Bogey 17), so that they add up to the bigger picture problem instead of being the better compliment to the main pieces.

Also what's gonna win or lose game 7 is what they put on the floor, not their paychecks. And Conley let more overall on the floor not only this game, but through games 3 to 6 than Ingles and Clarkson did on these games (one good to 2 big games to a not really good from Mike over this stretch to Clarkson splitting his hot hand games with his bad shooting ones, as he did when Conley were out, and Ingles 3 shy shooting to bad games to just one really good, in comparison to his much more active and agressive performances on Conley's absence)

 

[jom2003]

We also gave up players and picks to get Conley.

Oh and we have been better when Conley isn't there. Which is really all that matters.

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we won a playoff series with DM "only" needed to score 28 pt a game. Then he's gotten more "offensive helps". Yet we are now about to lose a series in which DM needs to score 40+ a game

 

[rjfan]

We also gave up players and picks to get Conley.

Oh and we have been better when Conley isn't there. Which is really all that matters.

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We played better due to a lot of the factors, opposition strength being one of them, playing bigger lineups other, Ingles playmaking among other reasons.

But for this stretch we also had Bogey, so we had a guy that got his scoring and shooting much more consistently than Ingles and Clarkson, and on a bigger volume than Ingles, and i'd say he had more off ball gravity too as being better for both attacking closeouts and getting his three on the run off ball (Ingles is really smart and opportunistic on getting his spots, but he's not on Bogey level of running over the perimeter and through screens to let It fly, like he did for his gamewinner against the Rockets, while Clarkson can't match his consistency), and he's out now. Also Mudiay weren't effective on the bubble as he were earlier on the season, even when Mike didn't play and he made his way out of the rotation when he played on 2 guards lineups, instead of 3.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I'd really like to see us make it to the next round in part to measure Rudy in the playoffs. Clips are a more traditional team and won't put a stretch 5 out there much and they aren't the Rockets. I just want to see him put his stamp on a playoff series in a big way. I want to see him be a matchup problem for someone else.

 

[jom2003]

Well, I'm totally pointing out that there were 25mil that neither were playing D, draining 3s or having Conley scoring. 25mil is enough money for two role players.

What we do going forward with this roster is a task for the front office on the offseason, they really need to make some adjustments. Conley is overpaid ? Yes, he is. But Ingles and Clarkson also need to earn their money, and they didn't tonight, and for role players i'd say we're not in the right path when they can't be consistent and take most of the same flaws of the biggers contracts (not only Conley 32, but also Bogey 17), so that they add up to the bigger picture problem instead of being the better compliment to the main pieces.

Also what's gonna win or lose game 7 is what they put on the floor, not their paychecks. And Conley let more overall on the floor not only this game, but through games 3 to 6 than Ingles and Clarkson did on these games (one good to 2 big games to a not really good from Mike over this stretch to Clarkson splitting his hot hand games with his bad shooting ones, as he did when Conley were out, and Ingles 3 shy shooting to bad games to just one really good, in comparison to his much more active and agressive performances on Conley's absence)

then that is DL's problem. not mine or any of the fans'. he was the one who decided to extend Ingles to 14mil a year and traded a bunch of assets for an overpaid Conley. Would you say without regrets that these are good moves that we would do over again? then here we go

 

[rjfan]

Thing is Clarkson, and Ingles are role players who are paid like role players. Role players often play a role and little else. Clarkson has been pretty amazing this season at his role. Joe has been pretty good at his role for years. But they are role players who are paid like role players and will also suck somewhat often (that's what role players do and why they get 10-20 million rather than 30 plus)
Conley is on rarified air with his salary. Dudes making that money are supposed to make the team much better. Instead he seems to have made us worse in the win loss column.

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Well, my point is that for his salary, i saw Conley got closer to decent star level production on game 6 and through game 3 to 6 (when he played) than Ingles and Clarkson got on their ways of good complimentary role players production of their salaries over the same stretch, while Nuggets adjustments affected Clarkson and Ingles productions more than Conley.

Also that i see the correlation between their production and their paychecks a bigger factor for our offseasons moves than to find our way into what we do to try win this series, as the contracts are already there and we're not trading Conley nor Clarkson and Ingles for game 7, so Quin is tied to make something out of the production that he has of his players now.

 

[rjfan]

then that is DL's problem. not mine or any of the fans'. he was the one who decided to extend Ingles to 14mil a year and traded a bunch of assets for an overpaid Conley. Would you say without regrets that these are good moves that we would do over again? then here we go

I'm not saying that Conley contract isn't an overpaid, nor that DL should run the roster back, or that knowing how the Conley trade would go, i'd do It again, i'd say no to all three of these (only thing that could would be if a believed that Conley trade were decisive on Bogey coming, but i see his a bit overpaid salary as the real reason he came to the Jazz)

I'm simply saying that Conley were the guy giving Mitchell the bigger offensive help both as shot creator and playmaker and being less affected by the Nuggets adjustments, in a situation that we're without Bogey shooting, scoring and consistency, (so that he'd be more redundant to some of Conley's qualities and defense limits

 

[LogGrad98]

like i said. Conley hasn't played bad. but he needs to do way better than just "not bad" for us to compete right now. DM's done his part. Conley gotta do his.

The big problem with Conley and Mitchell both is they are not natural creators. They are drive and kick, offense first, high usage guards. Both of them need to have more of an attitude of creating for the team. Conley has become a ball stopper, Mitchell maybe a little less so but also. No ball movement, heavy drive into the defender offense is going to get us killed. What happened to the vaunted motion offense that generates so many open looks from 3 and cuts to the basket? Quin needs to figure this **** out.

 

[Hekate]

I would rather bench Ingles.

 

[DasJazz]

After watching the atrocities that are Joe and Royce, this thread has lost its luster.

 

[NAOS]

I'm doubting that Conley actually gonna be the Murray stopper on D, and the way that the Nuggets are calling screen after screen to take O'Neale out of his front in exchange of Mitchell, Ingles, Clarkson, Niang and Conley kinda suggets me that they're more than happy with him beating everyone of that group out of the dribble. Murray success doing that also gets as a hint.

That being said, i don't think that cutting Conley out of the rotation is the right call to the way the Nuggets adjusted their defense, and how i think is the better defensive change.

They're packing their paint to take out our free drives and the Gobert pnr with basically everyone attacking Porter and Jokic (both by cutting Porter minutes, playing Grant more and making him close more inside than outside) and giving the space for who in hell be on the perimeter to shoot, while also giving bigger pressure on the ball handler to shoot of the dribble and/or make the right pass. Conley been the only guy out of Mitchell that consistently find his shot off ball, and made shots on drives or went to the line, and also took the right passes to Gobert and back to the perimeter, something that both Ingles and Clarkson weren't able to do (at least consistently), while not being better defenders than Conley, so yeah, he's clearly ahead of these two on earn his playing time there.

On defense, the strategy of play 2 on 2 with O'Neale and Gobert on Murray and Jokic ain't working. They're finding ways to get Murray out of O'Neale, and when Royce gets to avoid the switch, they're making us pay with Joker hability not only to make threes, but of taking whatever we give when Gobert is pulled out of the rim, both in lack of rim protection or rebounding. My best answer is release the Morgan, play less of Ingles, Clarkson and especially Niang when they're not earning their time on the floor on offense (cause sincerely at this point are we really believing they'll earn it on defense ?), use his defensive skills to be better equiped to switch, to play 3 on 2 defense on Murray and Jokic two men game (and isolating the worse off ball Nuggets player on the floor out of them) and not be so damn small and unathletic down there on the boards.

Malone made his adjustments to what Snyder called the Jazz to do to get a 3-1 lead. With game 7 on tuesday, If we run the same thing, we better hope that O'Neale, Clarkson, Ingles and Niang be hot all game long from downtown, and or insane nights from Mitchell and Conley, and that if it be enough, or they could even pack up their things before the game.

Who has advocated for cutting Conley out of the rotation? Tia.

 

[jom2003]

The big problem with Conley and Mitchell both is they are not natural creators. They are drive and kick, offense first, high usage guards. Both of them need to have more of an attitude of creating for the team. Conley has become a ball stopper, Mitchell maybe a little less so but also. No ball movement, heavy drive into the defender offense is going to get us killed. What happened to the vaunted motion offense that generates so many open looks from 3 and cuts to the basket? Quin needs to figure this **** out.

And that's been my argument. DM has produced numbers for us so astonishing that he doesn't really need to create for his teammates. And Conley, while being "not bad", has gotta do more when we rest DM on the bench. 15-20pts a game in this series simply won't cut it.

 

[Agent#00]

Rudy need to demand the ball more tell dm and Conley to "pass me the ball I'm a mothafaka too!"

 

[NAOS]

Conley isn’t executing better or more complicated reads out of the PnR than year-3 Rodney Hood. He’s being asked to do basic ****.

To someone really concerned with the box score, it may look like he’s having a decent series. But take game 3 out of the sample (a game where Denver just laid down), and adjust for Bubble Inflation, and then watch his lack of impact on the defensive side, then get back to me.

I’ll bitch about Ingles, too, in the appropriate place. He’s been Captain Wallflower.

Ingles and Conley need to be much better in game 7. And Quin needs to try some trapping on Murray for chrisssakes

 

[jom2003]

I'm not saying that Conley contract isn't an overpaid, nor that DL should run the roster back, or that knowing how the Conley trade would go, i'd do It again, i'd say no to all three of these (only thing that could would be if a believed that Conley trade were decisive on Bogey coming, but i see his a bit overpaid salary as the real reason he came to the Jazz)

I'm simply saying that Conley were the guy giving Mitchell the bigger offensive help both as shot creator and playmaker and being less affected by the Nuggets adjustments, in a situation that we're without Bogey shooting, scoring and consistency, (so that he'd be more redundant to some of Conley's qualities and defense limits

The thing is if Denver doubles DM , we are done. It's much easier for them to stop Mitchell than we are to stop Murray. When Murray doesn't score, he can simply pass the ball to Jokic and he can drop 30 or even 40 points easily to put us out of misery, while Conley is gonna have another 15 or 20pt game on 7 out of 15 shooting.

 

[LogGrad98]

Conley would be fine with 15 points if he was also getting 7-10 assists and 2 steals. But him putting up 21 without having much impact on playmaking and defense doesn't help, not in that role.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Yall are really crazy lmfao.

 

[Deleted member 95]

Brogdon anyone?

 

[jom2003]

Conley would be fine with 15 points if he was also getting 7-10 assists and 2 steals. But him putting up 21 without having much impact on playmaking and defense doesn't help, not in that role.

that's the same argument as justifying Niang to be even on the court. how many points does he need to score to make up for the damage he's done to us in other areas of the game? i'd say Duncan Robinson/Davis Bertans sorta numbers at least.

 

[latin jazz]

Conley would be fine with 15 points if he was also getting 7-10 assists and 2 steals. But him putting up 21 without having much impact on playmaking and defense doesn't help, not in that role.

I'm curious: has anyone averaged more than 7 assists per game under Quin egalitarian system?. It's seems impossible so maybe that's not fair to ask. Even Ricky only averaged 6.1 in his second season. For steals, it's the same. We don't gamble on defense and Quin preaches staying in front of his man or directing him towards help (Rudy). Again, has any player averaged more than 2 steals under Q?

Having said that, Conley has not contributed on defense but we kind of expected that due to his size and age (he hasn't been terrible either this season). At least he is contributing on offense: he is shooting the ball well and making good decisions. Before the last game, when he had two terrible TOs, he only had 2 TOs in the first 3 games of the series, and he was instrumental in games 3 and 4, hitting big shoots or making the right plays when needed. The last two games Denver has trapped him and defended him better, collapsing the paint and closing passing lanes when he is able to penetrate (they have done the same to Don and JC).

I'm more concerned about Royce and Ingles.