On the record...

[SteakNEggs]

There are certain people who are really into investing and saving, for a future date that never materializes. They continue to dump all money and make sacrifices to fill up retirement accounts and other things they don’t touch. A lot to admire about that, but they sacrifice memories and experiences while their kids are young and end up dying at 55.

I’m amazed OKC doesn’t have more fans because that’s many fans’ idea of nirvana.

So we basically are a possible playoff this season, which eliminates our own pick. Minnesota will probably be high 20's so we improve nowhere via the draft. Next season if we don't make any huge moves moves we are in the same boat, no draft pick besides Minnesotas high pick. Year 3 we maybe have a chance but if we fail Mitchell is gone and we get nothing, we have our own mid to high draft pick and Minnesota.

This team is suddenly without Donovan, and rebuilding with little assets, mid round to high drafted players, so nobody to build around.

I personally don't get it. If this team wanted to build they would've made moves by now.

 

[Elizah Huge]

So we basically are a possible playoff this season, which eliminates our own pick. Minnesota will probably be high 20's so we improve nowhere via the draft. Next season if we don't make any moves we are in the same boat, no draft pick besides Minnesotas high pick. Year 3 we maybe have a chance but in we fail Mitchell is gone, we have our own mid to high draft pick and Minnesota.

This team is suddenly without Donovan, and rebuilding...

I personally don't get it.

We are not a playoff team with or without Donovan this year. We will trade him before training camp I’m pretty certain. There is a very clear path we are taking and it is the right one.

 

[framer]

I mean the most obvious call is that Colin Sexton will be playing for the Utah Jazz this year. That deal is there just obviously waiting on something else.

I like Sexton as an investment, but I'm done with undersized 2 guards. . .

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

There are certain people who are really into investing and saving, for a future date that never materializes. They continue to dump all money and make sacrifices to fill up retirement accounts and other things they don’t touch. A lot to admire about that, but they sacrifice memories and experiences while their kids are young and end up dying at 55.

I’m amazed OKC doesn’t have more fans because that’s many fans’ idea of nirvana.

This is not the right analogy… the hunting and gathering of picks lasts for a little while not in perpetuity. The correct analogy is this is like the young married couple that is struggling financially and can’t buy a house… instead of continuing the struggle they move in with the in laws for a little while to save money for a down payment and a little security. Now it might suck **** for a year but in a year they can save 5-10 times what the could otherwise. So over a 10 year period will they be sad they paused for a year or two to make the other 8 years better? Bet they won’t…

Now along the way some good or bad things could happen that speed up or slow down that strategy… no one will be happy if the couple just turn into losers that live with their parents forever. That isn’t the goal at all. It’s taking on some pain for a long term goal you really want. The goal is not to take on pain forever… that’s ridiculous.

 

[infection]

This is not the right analogy… the hunting and gathering of picks lasts for a little while not in perpetuity. The correct analogy is this is like the young married couple that is struggling financially and can’t buy a house… instead of continuing the struggle they move in with the in laws for a little while to save money for a down payment and a little security. Now it might suck **** for a year but in a year they can save 5-10 times what the could otherwise. So over a 10 year period will they be sad they paused for a year or two to make the other 8 years better? Bet they won’t…

Now along the way some good or bad things could happen that speed up or slow down that strategy… no one will be happy if the couple just turn into losers that live with their parents forever. That isn’t the goal at all. It’s taking on some pain for a long term goal you really want. The goal is not to take on pain forever… that’s ridiculous.

The young couple struggles financially but owns their own house. They move in with parents to save money and cash out the equity. They lose 6% in the process (more when equity is the calculated denominator), lose their sub 3% interest rate, and when they’re ready buy again have a 5% interest rate in an inflated market.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

The young couple struggles financially but owns their own house. They move in with parents to save money and cash out the equity. They lose 6% in the process (more when equity is the calculated denominator), lose their sub 3% interest rate, and when they’re ready buy again have a 5% interest rate in an inflated market.

Versus losing their house and racking up mountains of credit card debt to finance their life... eventually declaring bankruptcy and making them ineligible to get a mortgage for like 5-7 years... they get divorced and dad ends up a homeless methhead in Yuba City, CA... mom goes to work with @Hearsky 's mom turning tricks behind the 7/11... the kids live with the grandparents and never contact their parents but end up okay (I'm not a monster).

That is what you wanted?

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I mean the most obvious call is that Colin Sexton will be playing for the Utah Jazz this year. That deal is there just obviously waiting on something else.

I like Sexton as an investment, but I'm done with undersized 2 guards. . .

I like him as an investment. With the right backcourt pairing it could work (tough to find). I think he has that dawg in him and would at least make things fun.

If Indiana hadn't gotten Mathurin and Detroit hadn't got Ivey I think pairing him with Haliburton or Cade would have worked well. He'd work with a Lonzo type too... they are tough guys to fit but at the price (said to want 20M a year) he is going to be a value... especially if he takes a leap in his development.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I know the tank/hoarding of picks isn't like super appealing to some. It is not dumb though. Teams in markets like our need to build through the draft... making that draft capital flow like wine will give it the best chance of working out. There are no guarantees with any strategy. We squandered the Rudy/Don opportunity a bit with some short sightedness. Some bad stategery in the front office and coaching contributed to a quicker than normal demise. We may have sold a year too early, but I'd rather sell a year too early than a year too late (the old I'd rather be an hour early to an important meeting than 5 minutes late).

I have faith in Danny (just threw up in my mouth a little) and its promising that Ryan is letting Danny lead.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

I mean the most obvious call is that Colin Sexton will be playing for the Utah Jazz this year. That deal is there just obviously waiting on something else.

I like Sexton as an investment, but I'm done with undersized 2 guards. . .

That is probably the least obvious thing.

S&T's are really hard to work out, even if both teams want to do them.

Cleveland wants to keep Sexton, they just see an opportunity to keep him on a bargain.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

That is probably the least obvious thing.

S&T's are really hard to work out, even if both teams want to do them.

Cleveland wants to keep Sexton, they just see an opportunity to keep him on a bargain.

I'm not sure how much they want to keep him. Brought in Levert, signing Rubio, kinda puts them in a bind with the tax if his number goes where he wants. I think his QO is $7M... if he signs that he's out next year. They are offering 3/$40m supposedly... I think the QO might be the best route if they don't move up (unless he has a player option on the last year of that deal).

I think a deal is workable and we might be able to do it with JC and some seconds or other pieces we get in vet/Don trades. I would say the chances it happens are much less than 50%... so no sure thing at all.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

A JC for Sexton sign and trade is close enough moneywise to massage the numbers and make it work. Might also add in a Bogey for Lauri swap... there are multiple workable scenarios to make the money work. Its the normal trade questions that might get in the way - which players, picks, etc do the teams prefer.

 

[Elizah Huge]

A JC for Sexton sign and trade is close enough moneywise to massage the numbers and make it work. Might also add in a Bogey for Lauri swap... there are multiple workable scenarios to make the money work. Its the normal trade questions that might get in the way - which players, picks, etc do the teams prefer.

Clarkson puts them about 500k into the tax. According to their beat they want to avoid going into the tax. It’s close enough we could make it work by adding in another piece or two.

 

[outerspacefan]

<...> I hate that we traded Gobert... I hope he gets a ring and a couple more DPOY...

You've summed it up nice and concisely.
Won't change my mind on it any time soon.

 

[outerspacefan]

I hate that Jazzfanz are rooting for Gobert to win a title. That’s just one more year the jazz aren’t winning. Anyone rooting for Gobert to win is an idiot, and I was the biggest Gobert homer here. I moved on when the jazz did.

I moved on and I'm an idiot.
You can actually be in two mind/heart places (or a hundred).

 

[outerspacefan]

Just not wired that way. If I see Gobert win with the Wolves, All I’ll think is wtf couldn’t Gobert win with Utah. That would just infuriate me more than anything. That is the last thing I want to see happen...

Well... I've got to concede that if Wolves win it all with Rudy shooting and making jumpers and hooks I will be a little bit annoyed... but I still will be fine with Rudy.

 

[KqWIN]

Well, at least he can rebound like a big man. I don't think people really have any clue what they're not aware of with having never seen Rudy paired with a real PF who both spreads the floor and grabs boards. What Minnesota does could very well be making a large contingent of our fandom asking "couldn't we have kept Rudy and done this?" and the answer to that will be yes, and the rest of everyone else will allay their concerns by saying that you could only do that with a hindsight bias and that "nobody could have ever known that you could have had a winning combination with Gobert, the Wolves just happened to find it!"

Yeah….To give up like we did I think you have to have some feeling of, “we did all we could and it wasn’t enough”. But that is so far from the truth with this recent version of the Jazz.

I said this way back, but if I was a GM and believed I did not suck at my job I would have absolutely done what I could to win with Rudy and Don (or whatever winning player(s) you trade Don for).

Anyone can tank and it’s a permanently available option. Having Rudy and Don was a true power position and if I had confidence in making good moves I’d definitely move forward with them.

Last year was pretty close to worst case scenario and the Jazz were still a top 3 SRS team. If you don’t suck as a FO, make the moves to address the weaknesses. They were obvious, well defined, and not impossible to address.

 

[KqWIN]

Not only that, but most teams used their centers to guard Vanderbilt last year. It's not like KAT being guarded by 4's is new.

Right. Vando is a good player, but we’re going to quickly realize he’s a C on offense and a C that’s much worse at offense than Gobert. Gobert will elevate that team on both ends.

I’m not sure how far MIN will go, but for me it’s not a reservation about Gobert-Towns. Those guys are really ****ing good. It’s more about the development/play of Russell/Edwards/McDaniels.

I think playing in a different system will help Gobert grow as a player too. He was also a victim of Quin’s no adjustment rigid defense. He was often our best perimeter defender, but you could tell his instincts were not there because it’s not something he’d done much in games and probably never in practice.

The TWolves played an opposite style of defense last year. Instead of funneling everything to the big and staying home they relied heavily on scrambling and creating turnovers. Gobert is a very smart, disciplined player. I think he’ll pick things up quick and become an even bigger defensive force.

I don’t think Gobert deserved much blame if any all to begin with….but Quin’s rigidness did a number on the Jazz playoff defense. The habits were so deeply formed and did not stand up to playoff offenses and game plans. We saw it with everyone, getting out of that cycle will make Gobert a better player.

 

[gomretat]

This is not the right analogy… the hunting and gathering of picks lasts for a little while not in perpetuity. The correct analogy is this is like the young married couple that is struggling financially and can’t buy a house… instead of continuing the struggle they move in with the in laws for a little while to save money for a down payment and a little security. Now it might suck **** for a year but in a year they can save 5-10 times what the could otherwise. So over a 10 year period will they be sad they paused for a year or two to make the other 8 years better? Bet they won’t…

Now along the way some good or bad things could happen that speed up or slow down that strategy… no one will be happy if the couple just turn into losers that live with their parents forever. That isn’t the goal at all. It’s taking on some pain for a long term goal you really want. The goal is not to take on pain forever… that’s ridiculous.

So what is the window for deciding when to blow it up and start over versus seeing if you can build on what you have? We had two all-stars who were still getting better or in their prime. How quickly do you decide you cant make it and blow it up because you aren't good enough? I get blowing it up if your all-stars are past their prime. This could very easily become perpetual pain if you dont get really lucky with the picks.

 

[Elizah Huge]

So what is the window for deciding when to blow it up and start over versus seeing if you can build on what you have? We had two all-stars who were still getting better or in their prime. How quickly do you decide you cant make it and blow it up because you aren't good enough? I get blowing it up if your all-stars are past their prime. This could very easily become perpetual pain if you dont get really lucky with the picks.

When there is no avenue to get better. We had zero assets and zero picks.

 

[Jingled]

Yeah….To give up like we did I think you have to have some feeling of, “we did all we could and it wasn’t enough”. But that is so far from the truth with this recent version of the Jazz.

I said this way back, but if I was a GM and believed I did not suck at my job I would have absolutely done what I could to win with Rudy and Don (or whatever winning player(s) you trade Don for).

Anyone can tank and it’s a permanently available option. Having Rudy and Don was a true power position and if I had confidence in making good moves I’d definitely move forward with them.

Last year was pretty close to worst case scenario and the Jazz were still a top 3 SRS team. If you don’t suck as a FO, make the moves to address the weaknesses. They were obvious, well defined, and not impossible to address.

I definitely think there were things the front office could have done differently the past few seasons to give us a better chance to win with Rudy and Don, but I think it reached the point this offseason that blowing it up was the best option. We had no cap space, no draft picks, and none of our players outside of Rudy and Don have much trade value. I Honestly don't see a path forward where we could have improved the team around Rudy and Don. This team needed a major overhaul...making moves around the margins using our taxpayer MLE and vet minimums wasn't going to move the needle at all, we needed to make upgrades in the starting lineup, and I don't think we had a way to do that. We could have kept Rudy and Don the next few years and we likely still would've been a good regular season team, but in the playoffs we were never going to be anything more than a first or second round exit.