RealGM reports Jazz interested in Trading for John Collins

[Deleted member 365]

IMO, this is exactly why you trade for a player like Collins. His value is at an all time low, but he has great attributes. If you believe in Hardy's ability to get the most of out guys, you want to bring in guys like John Collins at this exact timing. There have been a few people asking "why?"...but this is exactly why.

And while we're on that theme, it's great to feel good about yourselves when things are going good...but it's very easy to overrate your own players when they are on a hot streak. If we did a roundtable opinion on Sexton, Conley, and Beasley etc. two weeks ago I'd imagine it would be very different than it is now. That's just how people work....but I wouldn't want a hot/cold streak to dictate too much of this team's decision making.

What are his attributes exactly?

 

[KqWIN]

Great attributes?

Collins is a guy who ended up in a great situation (got paid, starts on a winning team) but still somehow managed to become unhappy. That's a gigantic red flag. He thinks it's all about him and his touches.

Many guys on this Utah team play with legit chips on their shoulders. Collins isn't like that. His team handed him the bag before he'd proven anything, and he's never even been challenged at Atlanta.

Yes. He's a tremendous athlete with great touch around the basket and also a capable shooter. That's what got him paid. Many guys on this Jazz team had the same criticisms coming into this year. Seriously, look down the Jazz roster and you'll find the same complaints everyone has about Collins. Fact is, players need the right situation to succeed. For John Collins, the right situation for him isn't one that has him standing around and not being involved in the offense. You won't find many young players as productive as he was who are content with being phased out of the offense. Lauri certainly wasn't. Ironically, Lauri and Collins have very similar paths as young players. Both were very productive, then stalled out and could not adjust to less touches. This whole season has been predicated on turning lemons into lemonade. I think if you put John Collins on this team you will see a drastically different and more productive player, just as was the case with several others.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Yes. He's a tremendous athlete with great touch around the basket and also a capable shooter. That's what got him paid. Many guys on this Jazz team had the same criticisms coming into this year. Seriously, look down the Jazz roster and you'll find the same complaints everyone has about Collins. Fact is, players need the right situation to succeed. For John Collins, the right situation for him isn't one that has him standing around and not being involved in the offense. You won't find many young players as productive as he was who are content with being phased out of the offense. Lauri certainly wasn't. Ironically, Lauri and Collins have very similar paths as young players. Both were very productive, then stalled out and could not adjust to less touches. This whole season has been predicated on turning lemons into lemonade. I think if you put John Collins on this team you will see a drastically different and more productive player, just as was the case with several others.

But can he be in a ball movement/player movement offense or is he just a guy who wants every PNR to get passed to him, a guy who wants iso touches on the elbows, etc.

 

[KqWIN]

But can he be in a ball movement/player movement offense or is he just a guy who wants every PNR to get passed to him, a guy who wants iso touches on the elbows, etc.

I think our offense would be perfect for him. The one criticism that can be made about his offense is that he's not much of a self creator. He was one of the best play finishers especially as a roll man. Our player/ball movement would create a lot of opportunities for him. He was an elite PnR finisher, but ATL basically took that part of his game away. Whenever a big guy complains about his role, it usually means a guy wants more post up touches. I can see why that throws off a lot of people, but I don't think that's the case for Collins. The Hawks run a very simple offense were there isn't much ball movement and instead spread out and run PnR with Trae. So if you're not involved in the PnR, you're just standing around. Collins isn't a player who is meant to be standing around. If Collins was setting screens and moving on the court I think he'd be right back to where he was and even better. If the offensive plan is to run PnR and have everyone else space out and not move, Collins is going to have to be the roll man or you're going to run into the problems that ATL currently has with him. But if your offensive plan is to use all 5 players and get everyone involved, I think he can really shine.

 

[Coach Ellis]

Eh this trade would be on the basis of adding a future piece while paying 50c on the dollar. The entire piece doesn't have to fit as long as going forward you can add the right pieces around the likes of Lauri and Collins.

Personally I would rather try and sign either Kuzma or Jerami Grant as free agents in the off season and trade for Collins should we strike out on either of those guys.

Also can we stop overrating Olynyk. Since his hot start he has reverted back to a 37% three point shooter and getting 2.8 assist per game. He is a big capable of making passes more so than a playmaking big. I like the guy and he would have been the ideal back up on previous Jazz teams but should be viewed as one year rental/trade bait meaning if the right deal come along he would be our most expendable player.

I love the idea of either Kuzma or Grant on this team, but what’s even the pathway to acquire one of them?

Would’ve loved a Bogey/Grant swap early on, but I don’t see how Portland lets him get away at this point.

 

[Coach Ellis]

He ranks 92nd in usage rate for NBA, between Collin Sexton and Keon Johnson. 39th for forwards.

In touches he is 114th overall and 49th among forwards. Thays even more of a disgrace because of the minutes he plays.

Even in the category on centers, he is 19th in touches, between offensive juggernauts Valanciunas and Jarrett Allen.

So no, we are not feeding him as his production deserves. Imagine how much hidden potential there is.

Especially with how efficiently he seems to put up numbers. Seems he makes the most of his opportunities AND does so in a way that contributes to winning.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

IMO, this is exactly why you trade for a player like Collins. His value is at an all time low, but he has great attributes. If you believe in Hardy's ability to get the most of out guys, you want to bring in guys like John Collins at this exact timing. There have been a few people asking "why?"...but this is exactly why.

And while we're on that theme, it's great to feel good about yourselves when things are going good...but it's very easy to overrate your own players when they are on a hot streak. If we did a roundtable opinion on Sexton, Conley, and Beasley etc. two weeks ago I'd imagine it would be very different than it is now. That's just how people work....but I wouldn't want a hot/cold streak to dictate too much of this team's decision making.

The only guy I’d change my assessment on from 2 weeks ago is Beasley… it’s partly what he’s doing now but it’s also that he’s had moments like this in the past and injuries/off court issues/coaching and personnel changes kinda blocked him from building on it.

I’m just not sure on Collins… prolly need to watch him more. If the market value is that he’s not a positive given his contract then I’d see what we could cobble together. Because of contract size it’s likely costing one of Beasley/Mike/KO… would need to be a three team deal if it’s Mike as there isn’t really a need. If it was KO and Vando plus filler I’d prolly do that. I’d be really hesitant to put Malik in that deal.

When you think of what we need next to Lauri/JC/Mike I think Collins tics a few boxes. Could be some issues in Atlanta that make it a great value… it’s interesting/tempting.

 

[Coach Ellis]

I love the triple towers concept, but the Jazz need wings, wings, more wings and a lead ball handler for life after Conley. I’d like to see if any undervalued wings hit the market leading up to the deadline. That’s where I’d focus my efforts and assets.

 

[KqWIN]

The only guy I’d change my assessment on from 2 weeks ago is Beasley… it’s partly what he’s doing now but it’s also that he’s had moments like this in the past and injuries/off court issues/coaching and personnel changes kinda blocked him from building on it.

I’m just not sure on Collins… prolly need to watch him more. If the market value is that he’s not a positive given his contract then I’d see what we could cobble together. Because of contract size it’s likely costing one of Beasley/Mike/KO… would need to be a three team deal if it’s Mike as there isn’t really a need. If it was KO and Vando plus filler I’d prolly do that. I’d be really hesitant to put Malik in that deal.

When you think of what we need next to Lauri/JC/Mike I think Collins tics a few boxes. Could be some issues in Atlanta that make it a great value… it’s interesting/tempting.

His poor form is what makes it a real opportunity IMO. If Collins was averaging 22/10 on 66 TS% this wouldn't be a discussion because he wouldn't come cheap....but he's at lowest. I feel like we'd be on the right side of a buy low, sell high transaction.

I personally like his fit next to Lauri going forward, but I also just see this as a good opportunity to get a talented player that we can rehabilitate. Collins isn't perfect, but I trust Hardy to get the most out of him and if he can that would be a huge reward. I like what he's done with everyone else on the roster and think he can do the same with Collins.

 

[Elizah Huge]

His poor form is what makes it a real opportunity IMO. If Collins was averaging 22/10 on 66 TS% this wouldn't be a discussion because he wouldn't come cheap....but he's at lowest. I feel like we'd be on the right side of a buy low, sell high transaction.

I personally like his fit next to Lauri going forward, but I also just see this as a good opportunity to get a talented player that we can rehabilitate. Collins isn't perfect, but I trust Hardy to get the most out of him and if he can that would be a huge reward. I like what he's done with everyone else on the roster and think he can do the same with Collins.

Very well said. Sums it up perfectly.

 

[Pinhead]

Very well said. Sums it up perfectly.

I like the concept… but I just don’t know what contracts we’d send out. Had Collins value dropped enough that KO and Gay would be enough of a pick was attached?

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

The best argument for going after John Collins might be Kevin Huerter.

 

[fishonjazz]

It is frustrating to always have to educate some of you. The jazz are 10-0 when Lauri scores over 20 points. The jazz are 9-1 when Lauri takes 15 or more shots. The jazz are 3 and 5 when Lauri takes under 14 shots a game. The bottom line is that the jazz are a much better team when Lauri is aggressive and more of a focal point.

Educate me lol. Maybe someone should educate you on how to read since I literally posted this a couple posts above yours:

Now on the other hand i think we are undefeated when lauri scores over 20 points per game so maybe more touches would only make us better.


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[KqWIN]

The best argument for going after John Collins might be Kevin Huerter.

I honestly think the best argument is Lauri Markannen. Look what a change of scenery did for him. Same could happen for Collins. It's not glamorous, but people need to realize you're not going to get some young up and coming star who's playing super well for cheap. What the Jazz can get are undervalued players who aren't in the right situation. Half the team is a bunch of former misfits that Hardy has revived. Like Collins they had real flaws and questions marks, but in the right situation (our situation) they can succeed.

 

[Tom349]

I love the idea of either Kuzma or Grant on this team, but what’s even the pathway to acquire one of them?

Would’ve loved a Bogey/Grant swap early on, but I don’t see how Portland lets him get away at this point.

Both are free agents in the off season. Kuz went to college in Utah and is tailor made for our system. I can't see Portland paying Grant 25-30m a season and being in Luxury tax hell.

His poor form is what makes it a real opportunity IMO. If Collins was averaging 22/10 on 66 TS% this wouldn't be a discussion because he wouldn't come cheap....but he's at lowest. I feel like we'd be on the right side of a buy low, sell high transaction.

I personally like his fit next to Lauri going forward, but I also just see this as a good opportunity to get a talented player that we can rehabilitate. Collins isn't perfect, but I trust Hardy to get the most out of him and if he can that would be a huge reward. I like what he's done with everyone else on the roster and think he can do the same with Collins.

Anyone can fit next to Lauri or at least on offense they can. Not sure how the fit with Collins works on defense but the current issue with Olynyk is poor help defense due to a lack of athleticism whereas this in theory is where Collins would thrive whether he is smart enough to make the right read is another question. I think in a worst case scenario is if we traded for Collins and he wasn't a great fit with the starting line up then he would become the best sixth in the comp which with Lauri on his current contract you could afford to have Collins come off the bench or start in a Favors type token starting role.

Also just on Collins, before Capella he had 28.% frequency as the Pick and Roll man, each season since it has decreased and is currently at 12.9%.

 

[porfavors]

Ainge is get him for 2045 2nd round pick?

 

[The Midnight]

Can he shoot the 3? If no I don’t want him.

 

[Coach Ellis]

Both are free agents in the off season. Kuz went to college in Utah and is tailor made for our system. I can't see Portland paying Grant 25-30m a season and being in Luxury tax hell.



Anyone can fit next to Lauri or at least on offense they can. Not sure how the fit with Collins works on defense but the current issue with Olynyk is poor help defense due to a lack of athleticism whereas this in theory is where Collins would thrive whether he is smart enough to make the right read is another question. I think in a worst case scenario is if we traded for Collins and he wasn't a great fit with the starting line up then he would become the best sixth in the comp which with Lauri on his current contract you could afford to have Collins come off the bench or start in a Favors type token starting role.

Also just on Collins, before Capella he had 28.% frequency as the Pick and Roll man, each season since it has decreased and is currently at 12.9%.

I think we’d have to trade for one of them before the deadline - which I’m totally open to having the Jazz do that. Just not sure who the Wizards or Blazers would even want in a swap that the Jazz should be open to moving. I’d like to see the team keep Markkanen, Beasley, Kessler, Vando, THT, Agbaji, Fontecchio and Sexton (for now). Also, I’m pretty sure JC has earned an extension for beyond this season.

That leaves Conley, Olynyk, Gay, NAW, Bolmaro and Azibuike who are reasonably expendable. Not sure there’s enough value to get a deal done without including a premium draft asset too. Not sure I want to do that quite yet - and especially not for anyone who isn’t star material and moves the needle for next season.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Both are free agents in the off season. Kuz went to college in Utah and is tailor made for our system. I can't see Portland paying Grant 25-30m a season and being in Luxury tax hell.



Anyone can fit next to Lauri or at least on offense they can. Not sure how the fit with Collins works on defense but the current issue with Olynyk is poor help defense due to a lack of athleticism whereas this in theory is where Collins would thrive whether he is smart enough to make the right read is another question. I think in a worst case scenario is if we traded for Collins and he wasn't a great fit with the starting line up then he would become the best sixth in the comp which with Lauri on his current contract you could afford to have Collins come off the bench or start in a Favors type token starting role.

Also just on Collins, before Capella he had 28.% frequency as the Pick and Roll man, each season since it has decreased and is currently at 12.9%.

We aren’t likely to have cap space at this point. If we keep Beasley,THT, and Mike then we can’t really sign those types outright. Could swing sign and trades I suppose.

 

[The Fresh Prince]

I mean if the Jazz really like Collins and Hawks want to part with the Rookie Griffin with him, for more tested vet like JC to fill that role for their playoff piush , and maybe slightly more proven contributor in the same type in Beasley. I can see a small amount of light through that crack. Collins Griffin and a 1st round pick swap in 2023 for JC Beasley and a lottery protected Cavs first