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sick of being treated like the nba's step child

Thee Idiotic Minivan K said:
Spurs
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The worst example ever.

Spurs finished top 5 in the conference every year except when they got hit by massive injuries. They didnt gut their roster like you want to do. Their tank for Duncan started by accident, and while Pops made it sure they maximize the lost year they also lucked out big time with the lottery odds. Celtics had like twice the % they did.
 
'm not sure there is a perfect strategy. Tanking may not be an issue but the example people show here concerns teams who are win title or who are much more exciting market than SLC. How do we get a su[perstar, i'm talking about KD Steph, Dame level. Not by trade for sure, the main point for me is to be lucky with the draft but also to add good players and work on chemistry team. Minny got KAT and ANT by draft. They add Mac daniels, Rudy , Mike. Slomo by trading smart. They may not win a title but at least they probably in PO for the coming year and look like a contender..
 
FrenchJazzFa said:
'm not sure there is a perfect strategy. Tanking may not be an issue but the example people show here concerns teams who are win title or who are much more exciting market than SLC. How do we get a su[perstar, i'm talking about KD Steph, Dame level. Not by trade for sure, the main point for me is to be lucky with the draft but also to add good players and work on chemistry team. Minny got KAT and ANT by draft. They add Mac daniels, Rudy , Mike. Slomo by trading smart. They may not win a title but at least they probably in PO for the coming year and look like a contender..
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Minny may be the best example of draft luck resulting in a good product as their two best players are drafted by them at the top of the lottery, but no one says that because they havent won a championship yet. Maybe they will, maybe they wont.

However they have plowed the bottom of the conference for most of their entire history, so you could say lightning was about to strike at some point. Lot of people thought it struck with KG, but they couldn't get over the hump with him. Now they are in the middle of their 2nd real attempt in 35 years of franchise history, and I think most fans would want to avoid a strategy where you are able to build 2 solid teams in 35 years.
 
HermanG said:
Minny may be the best example of draft luck resulting in a good product as their two best players are drafted by them at the top of the lottery, but no one says that because they havent won a championship yet. Maybe they will, maybe they wont.

However they have plowed the bottom of the conference for most of their entire history, so you could say lightning was about to strike at some point. Lot of people thought it struck with KG, but they couldn't get over the hump with him. Now they are in the middle of their 2nd real attempt in 35 years of franchise history, and I think most fans would want to avoid a strategy where you are able to build 2 solid teams in 35 years.
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I agree with you. I think also we have to take into consideration the draft quality who for me is down since a cpl of years. Drafting top 10 players is not a garantee of success. Plenty of example the last years where high draft players can be good ( JA, Zion, Green,Cummingam...) but not game changer yet or bust ( Wiseman.. ...). So for sure you need a bit of luck in the entire process, but a clear strategy may help. This is the point where i have not convinced with jazz FO at that stage.
 
FrenchJazzFa said:
I agree with you. I think also we have to take into consideration the draft quality who for me is down since a cpl of years. Drafting top 10 players is not a garantee of success. Plenty of example the last years where high draft players can be good ( JA, Zion, Green,Cummingam...) but not game changer yet or bust ( Wiseman.. ...). So for sure you need a bit of luck in the entire process, but a clear strategy may help. This is the point where i have not convinced with jazz FO at that stage.
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If you go through the list of most recent champions:
  • Denver Nuggets - Small market team, that built the team while being mediocre
  • Golden State - Large market team, that built through draft but not through tanking. Their two highest draft picks in the last 20 years have resulted in James Wiseman and Ekpe Udoh (who no one ever talks about), with Wiseman being their only top 5 pick of the last 20 years. During that same timespan the Jazz have had 3 top 5 picks.
  • Lakers - Large market team that built through FA and trades with assets acquired by tanking
  • Bucks - Small market team that built while being mediocre
  • Raptors - Mid market team that hanged out in mediocrity and bought a mercenary who didnt want to go there for 1 year rental (really one of the most unique success stories in sports)
  • Cavs - Small market team and really the best tanking success story of the past 20 years (still being weak af). But they got to draft one of the two GOATs, who didnt win anything in the first 7 years. Then he left to win chips elsewhere while Cavs tanked again and Lebron was merciful enough to return to them after they had piled up talent and while the rest of the East was turning super weak.
So in the most recent history stuck in mediocre teams get 3 checkmarks (with 3 different teams winning a chip, 2 of them being clearly small market) and "tear it down" tanking teams get 2 with Lakers and Cavs..... HOWEVER both Lakers and Cavs signed Lebron in FA.

So if we are able to sign a guy like Lebron from FA after years of tanking, then it looks like its a decent plan. Still worse than the other route though. Otherwise I choose the Bucks, Raptors and Nuggets route of building a team and culture, while hoping to get lucky or by trading for a 1-3 year rental superstar.
 
We agree. Bit of luck, culture, chemistry, building foundation and smart trade are the key. And a good draft pick is the cherry on the cake.
 
You know who was Minny's #5 pick in the 2016 draft? A guy called (checks notes) Kris Dunn. Apparently they had super high hopes for him.

I'm not sure what Dunn's doing now, but he hasn't led the Wolves to a championship, has he?
 
checkbookdoc said:
#Nevertank.

If you still want a full tank after seeing what Detroit is going through I don’t really know what to say. You are more likely to win a championship by not sucking than by sucking as much as possible. Look at history. What teams have won by going full tank? What teams have made finals by going full tank?
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My take away is that you just can't solely tank. You have to tank while trying to add talent and you shouldn't be too worried if that talent hurts the tank. Detroit did that, but with the worst project bigs imaginable.
 
HermanG said:
Heat culture is the thing that everyone should try to imitate and build... not the process Philly.
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But you can't. Heat Culture works because it's a highly sought out thing to live and play in Miami. You can't make people work like that to live in Cleveland.
 
Saint Cy of JFC said:
My take away is that you just can't solely tank. You have to tank while trying to add talent and you shouldn't be too worried if that talent hurts the tank. Detroit did that, but with the worst project bigs imaginable.
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Adding "talent" is one thing. But if you have an actual All Star on the roster, tanking with him doesn't make any sense. That's not just hurting the tank, it's wasting a very valuable asset. Either trade him ASAP to tear it all down or go into buyer mode and start improving the team around him.

We still seem to be somewhere in the middle.
 
HermanG said:
The worst example ever.

Spurs finished top 5 in the conference every year except when they got hit by massive injuries. They didnt gut their roster like you want to do. Their tank for Duncan started by accident, and while Pops made it sure they maximize the lost year they also lucked out big time with the lottery odds. Celtics had like twice the % they did.
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Philly shamelessly tanked for years, and the spurs held out David Robinson the whole year. He didn’t suffer a season ending injury, also GS shamelessly yanked to take our pick away. There are plenty more examples.
 
Saint Cy of JFC said:
But you can't. Heat Culture works because it's a highly sought out thing to live and play in Miami. You can't make people work like that to live in Cleveland.
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That is partially true, but it doesnt apply to other Miami-based sport franchises so its not the entire truth.

Also another franchise with something similar to Heat culture is the Patriots, and while Boston is a big city its not the jetset destination for the ages, the weather isnt great and afaik their income taxes arent competitive with Miami either. The Steelers and Ravens also share a similar culture of grit and toughness, even if they have less Super Bowl appearances and wins to show for it (being in the same conference with the Patriots and the Chiefs being the biggest reason probably).

Both Heat and Patriots have in common the fact that they bring in a lot of undrafted guys who turn successful. I think the main key about both of those cultures is that they prefer guys who have a huge chip on their shoulder for whatever reason, and who are therefore more driven to work hard and more dedicated to winning. But it all starts from the top. The coaches (Spo, Belichick, Harbaugh, Tomlin), owners and GMs are all 100% dedicated to the culture.

What you are right about is that playing and living in some of the super depressing cities is a massive hill to climb for those franchises.... which is why its great we own both Minnesota and Cleveland drafts over the next 5-6 years.
 
Thee Idiotic Minivan K said:
Philly shamelessly tanked for years, and the spurs held out David Robinson the whole year. He didn’t suffer a season ending injury, also GS shamelessly yanked to take our pick away. There are plenty more examples.
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All bad examples. Philly did tank shamelessly but they are running on fumes with only 2nd round exits to show for. Spurs were a deep playoff run caliber team before they tanked and GSW also had the splash brothers in their roster before they tanked, and the funniest part was that they got their missing pieces in the 2nd round.

I guess I dont need those "plenty more examples" even since your prime examples are all so horrible and none of them even compares to what you want except Philly, who hasnt even gotten to the conference finals after all those years of shameless tanking.
 
HermanG said:
That is partially true, but it doesnt apply to other Miami-based sport franchises so its not the entire truth.

Also another franchise with something similar to Heat culture is the Patriots, and while Boston is a big city its not the jetset destination for the ages, the weather isnt great and afaik their income taxes arent competitive with Miami either. The Steelers and Ravens also share a similar culture of grit and toughness, even if they have less Super Bowl appearances and wins to show for it (being in the same conference with the Patriots and the Chiefs being the biggest reason probably).

Both Heat and Patriots have in common the fact that they bring in a lot of undrafted guys who turn successful. I think the main key about both of those cultures is that they prefer guys who have a huge chip on their shoulder for whatever reason, and who are therefore more driven to work hard and more dedicated to winning. But it all starts from the top. The coaches (Spo, Belichick, Harbaugh, Tomlin), owners and GMs are all 100% dedicated to the culture.

What you are right about is that playing and living in some of the super depressing cities is a massive hill to climb for those franchises.... which is why its great we own both Minnesota and Cleveland drafts over the next 5-6 years.
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The NFL is not the NBA
 
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