So nowadays, with all the stuff that has been amassed in museums and archaelogical publications on the area, it is known that the Hopewell civilization came to it's end in wars where women and children were slaughtered and buried en masse. . . . where the implements of war and the structures of towns present impressive correlations with what is depicted in the Book of Mormon. . . . and these things were being dug up across the region even as the Book of Mormon was presented to the public. . . .
Longest Thread Ever
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Whatever you might think of the religion. . . . the question about the authenticity of the Book of Mormon can just as well be cast as the natural outcome of commonplace lore of the region in terms of the peoples' firsthand findings interpreted perhaps with a sort of religiosity, as the result of divine providence. . . .
The whole spate of recent anti-Mormon criticisms claiming scientific, DNA, and archaeological anachronisms is falling under a wave of fact that is simply overwhelming. . . .
The whole spate of recent anti-Mormon criticisms claiming scientific, DNA, and archaeological anachronisms is falling under a wave of fact that is simply overwhelming. . . .
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As I understand it, though, Joseph had little to no real intentions of finding anything with his diggings. Just good ol' fashioned fraud... taking hard-working farmer's money with the promise his seer's stone would reveal hidden treasure's under the land they'd worked for so long. At least as skme renditions go.
Does that mean he couldn't have been selected by God? Of course not. Look at Saul.
I truly, truly believe, though, that both your accounts of Joseph and the Hopewells (and more blatantly the Hopewells) are far-reaching and wishful twists to an astonishingly extreme measure. I love you and respect you though.
Does that mean he couldn't have been selected by God? Of course not. Look at Saul.
I truly, truly believe, though, that both your accounts of Joseph and the Hopewells (and more blatantly the Hopewells) are far-reaching and wishful twists to an astonishingly extreme measure. I love you and respect you though.
Incidentally, my grandfather and father were archaeologists in the areas of Ohio, KY, and Indiana. I have, alongside them and their teams, dug dozens of earthworks and found fascinating things mostly from the Hopewell and Adena cultures. None of which indicate anything, at all, that suggests an inkling of credibility to a tie to the BoM Lamanites, etc.
I am not a believer in the BoM / Joseph Smith, but in my own personal experience and within my own sphere of empirical knowledge, if I were a believer, I'd look to the south and focus more on the Teotihuacan areas of influence where things line up at least semi-plausibly.
I am not a believer in the BoM / Joseph Smith, but in my own personal experience and within my own sphere of empirical knowledge, if I were a believer, I'd look to the south and focus more on the Teotihuacan areas of influence where things line up at least semi-plausibly.
one of the "rules of engagement" which I actually expect others to live by when dealing with me, if they want my respect, is to ditch the contrived symbolism of pretending to respect either me or my comments. BS is BS. Nothing more or less.
If you have some actual reasons to either respect something I say, or disrespect something I say, or my personal attributes. . . . . you earn respect with me by coming out with it. . . . straight up.
If you have some actual reasons to either respect something I say, or disrespect something I say, or my personal attributes. . . . . you earn respect with me by coming out with it. . . . straight up.
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I will confess I was actually thinking of you and your archaeological interests/profession. . . . when I posted the above. . . . I guess it's sometimes called "trolling" on the 'net. . . .
I laid out the theory as briefly as I could. Now I'm looking for the reasons why it will or will not fly with you. . . .
Duck Rodgers
Well-Known Member
PKM, when are you going to set out to find Yamishiita's gold?
If you're talking to me, that was bs. I do respect you and your comments.. regardless if you disapprove of mine.
Neither the populations (not even close) or the timelines work. Now, I do recognize that there are differing opinion, obviously, but mine are very strong that the Hopewells never had great numbers. They certainly never lived/organized in huge masses. And they were predominantly a.d. 200 - 400'ish.
As a personal revelation, of sorts, I'm willing to explain myself to you a little further. . . .
In 1977-9, for intensely personal and private reasons, I stopped going to LDS meetings even though my wife at the time was employed at LDS Church headquarters in a position of trust where she dealt with historical artifacts and records which even the general authorities of that time could not personally access or view except by going through a vetting process of explaining their purpose and securing an unanimous vote of "common consents" from their fellow authorities. Yes, sir. Not even Spencer Kimball could get around these rules. . . . And my wife was constantly attended by an armed security guard when she crossed the threshold into the vault filled with records that won't publicly be acknowledged or referenced. . . .
During my self-imposed hiatus in my "Mormonism", I read everything I could find from the anti-LDS folks of the day. I wanted to put myself in the situation of being actually free to take a fresh look at Mormonism, without the constraints of sentimental or emotive ties or controls. . . .
My wife of that era left the LDS Church in fact, but without disclosing her true position on the faith. . . . and left me as well. . . . and married and/or lived with a series of anti-Mormon men, one a "Born again Christian", and the other an inactive and critical disbelieving Mormon. The disbeliever facilitated and pretended to sympathize with her doubtings, but lost out romantically. . . if you could call it that. . . . to the Born Again Christian on the whole personal relationship interest, for a while at least. She and the BAC man moved to Texas where she got a good job and was accepted into the little Texas social circles of Dubya Bush, governor of Texas at that time.
She didn't stop talking to me for over ten years after she left me, so I knew a little, what she was willing for me to know. Ultimately, however, she broke up with the BAC guy and moved back to Utah, and married the disbelieving Mormon-in-name-only. After some time, they were retrieved by the LDS Church, re-activated and got their "temple marriage". I haven't heard from her since. She lives in my sister's stake, and I on some occasions get confronted by my sister on the gossip and/or allegations passed out by that ex-wife. . . . .
All in all, I'd say she's one of the most adroit liars I've ever known, capable of completely bamboozling me in the first instance, other men as well, including the highest LDS officials. . . .
I could not really place incautious faith in any of her stories, including her "revelations" of the inner workings of the LDS historical department or Presiding Bishop's office, of course. I consider it not worthwhile doubting that her uncle, however, was indeed a filipino hit man involved in the assassination of Benigno Aquino who later had a personal association with the Bushes, possibly though CIA connections, who could indeed escort his neices through the Dubya ranch doors with no questions asked. . . .. the possibility is as instructive as any fact could be.
All of this long-past personal saga was churned a bit in early November when the super Typhoon Yoli made a direct hit on my ex-wife's mothers' home town. . . . .