Locker room trouble?

[Stifle Tower]

Think about this if you are a coach looking for a HC position (and by the way, I think we hire Mike Longabardi). You have this talent coming in:

Burke, Neto
Hayward, Burks
Nuthin
Favors, Kanter
Gobert

Plus a top 10 pick and another pick this year, probably another top 10 pick next year, and then two picks in '17.

This team will is a very good opportunity for a young coach to come in and make his mark. There is defensive potential, up-tempo potential, high pick potential. You could really come in and mold this team into something great. Throw in the fact that the Jazz won't fire you...(which is why Shaka isn't leaving VCU. He is guaranteed money forever). Not a bad situation for a young guy at all.

You forgot Evans.
And the high second pick can't be discounted either. That's certainly a chance to add some depth. Plus the Jazz are in position to add 1-2 solid FA's. They really don't have tax concerns until THIS year's draft class comes off their rookie deals. Well, I guess if Burke and Gobert were to explode, someone might have to go. But that's more than enough time to bring in some veteran help, likely a wing and one other, depending on how the draft goes. I agree; it should be an attractive opportunity for a coach. Still holding to my line that it will be Brad Jones.

Oh, and for the record, I have never ONCE called for Corbin to be fired this year. I challenge anyone to find a post that says otherwise.

 

[mfree]

I think the end of the season will change attitudes significantly. Players are frustrated with losing right now, but when the season is over, they will see a couple of very good young draft picks, a free agent or two, the departure of a few old vets, and maybe even a coaching change. Even the guys who are most frustrated will see the potential of the team, realize how much they learned this year, and suddenly become very optimistic.

The future is bright, and they will see it.

 

[jimmy eat jazz]

Someone seems to have trouble reading and comprehending posts it seems.

I have never said I think Ty is a fantastic basketball mind nor that he should continue on ad infinitum as HC of the team.

Nor have I said he is terrible and should be canned or spout Corbin hate constantly like many of you posters.

Groupthink, bandwagons, and pitchforks with torches are not a good combination imo.

I don't see things the way you do and think it's absurd to ooze the Corbin disdain that has supersaturated your body.

I think almost any other NBA coach option would have had very close to the same results Corbin has had given the situations he was put in.
The only coach I actually wanted and saw as a good option was Hornacek but timing and the situation didn't work out that way.
I honestly don't see any other coaches out there that are the obvious choice to take the Jazz to "the promised land", so I see now reason to disrespect Corbin or throw him to the curb. I also think many people out of blind passion to fire Corbin refuse to see any of the good he does for the team or the players.

Continue to say what you want, but I think the constant calling for Corbin to be fired or just out of here is pretty pathetic.

Just because some of us think Corbin has not demonstrated that he can be a winning coach and are advocating that he not be resigned does not necessarily mean that we have succumbed to groupthink, have hopped on the bandwagon, or are after Corbin with torches.

Sometimes, the evidence is so compelling, that it leads naturally to an informed consensus of opinion.

3.5 year into it, we have more than enough data points to reach an informed decision as to whether Corbin merits an extension.

I don't have blind hatred for Corbin, and I admit to not being aware of ALL the good things he does for his players. BUT, I can see plainly, and as the statistics indicate, Corbin has not changed the defensive culture and performance of this team (which the FO said at the beginning of the season would be the single most important thing he'd be evaluated on) and he is not able to get this team to play above its relative skill level on a consistent basis. The Jazz are playing worse at the end of the season than they were mid-way through it. The Jazz, in sum, are performing worse that the sum of their component parts. Corbin cannot escape the blame for this; he has not met the goals set for him at the beginning of the season by the FO; and he needs to be held accountable. I like the guy, and I feel for him, but he is not a top tier, or even a middle tier, NBA coach. It's time for him to go.

 

[Jazz Spazz]

Good he has done for the team?

There is no excuse or reason to bring Corbin back. This team QUIT on him. They have tuned him out, and aren't even trying anymore. Why would anyone want him back? It makes no sense...unless you are pushing an agenda.

I don't care how good or bad of a coach Corbin is. His players have QUIT on him. You can't bring him back. It's too late. That ship has sailed.

And you think they quit because of what specifically? We knew the Jazz would suck this year, the Jazz knew they would suck this year.
Most of the games we lose because our bench sucks.
Against the Knicks we were in the game until Favors left the game with 4 mins left in the 3rd qtr, then they were down by around 10 when he came back. They lost by around 10.

I'm not seeing this from your perspective obviously. I don't think they have quit. I see they are discouraged at times.
I also see this as something that can be solved by a player or two from the draft, and a free agent or two.... and a bench that does not suck.

As to Corbin staying or going, I'm right in the middle. I don't hate him and want him gone. I won't cry if he stays. I also hope the Jazz FO explores all other coaching candidates they can to get a coach that can handle teaching, motivating, x's and o's, defense, and offense.

People talk about thibs and his amazing defense, yes he has a good defensive team. His team sucks offensively and if in the Western Conference they would not make the playoffs. Even with a good scheme and good defense you still need good players and the ability to score. What he needs is to get Rose back at full strength, and someone to fill deng's role.

What the Jazz need are good players who try all the time, and not just on one side of the ball, or part of the game. You can coach something all you want, if the players can't or don't do it it's not pretty. Is that the coaches fault or the players fault? Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

 

[mellow]

Who's Nate Duncan?

Follow the link. As for you doubters I totally believe this is true because

1- he has a web page
2- his web page says he is an insider
3- he tells us he was not actually Inside the locker room but just made a guess.


In other news I posted yesterday about Locke suggesting that there were some other internal issus bugging Hayward that had not made it to the media because Hayward is a good guy.

 

[[size/HUGE] fixed [/size]]

why is our old buddy Core4 gettin so easily trolled by our other old buddies?

Cmon yall, these be schticks.

 

[[size/HUGE] fixed [/size]]

If green lived in LA, he'd do two long lines of coke for breakfast.

 

[Fishsticks]

You forgot Evans.
And the high second pick can't be discounted either. That's certainly a chance to add some depth. Plus the Jazz are in position to add 1-2 solid FA's. They really don't have tax concerns until THIS year's draft class comes off their rookie deals. Well, I guess if Burke and Gobert were to explode, someone might have to go. But that's more than enough time to bring in some veteran help, likely a wing and one other, depending on how the draft goes. I agree; it should be an attractive opportunity for a coach. Still holding to my line that it will be Brad Jones.

Oh, and for the record, I have never ONCE called for Corbin to be fired this year. I challenge anyone to find a post that says otherwise.

May I ask why?

 

[Fishsticks]

why is our old buddy Core4 gettin so easily trolled by our other old buddies?

Cmon yall, these be schticks.

I didnt realize core was so trollable

 

[franklin]

So, about that locker room rumor in the OP before Core4 turned this into his personal **** hole, anyone know anything following last night's game?

 

[Jazz Spazz]

Just because some of us think Corbin has not demonstrated that he can be a winning coach and are advocating that he not be resigned does not necessarily mean that we have succumbed to groupthink, have hopped on the bandwagon, or are after Corbin with torches.

Sometimes, the evidence is so compelling, that it leads naturally to an informed consensus of opinion.

3.5 year into it, we have more than enough data points to reach an informed decision as to whether Corbin merits an extension.

I don't have blind hatred for Corbin, and I admit to not being aware of ALL the good things he does for his players. BUT, I can see plainly, and as the statistics indicate, Corbin has not changed the defensive culture and performance of this team (which the FO said at the beginning of the season would be the single most important thing he'd be evaluated on) and he is not able to get this team to play above its relative skill level on a consistent basis. The Jazz are playing worse at the end of the season than they were mid-way through it. The Jazz, in sum, are performing worse that the sum of their component parts. Corbin cannot escape the blame for this; he has not met the goals set for him at the beginning of the season by the FO; and he needs to be held accountable. I like the guy, and I feel for him, but he is not a top tier, or even a middle tier, NBA coach. It's time for him to go.

That's fine. If he is not resigned because our defense sucked and he was judged on the defense, I have no problems with that.
I also try to keep in mind that every year he has been given a poor situation to deal with as I look at all that has gone on and the results.

I do get tired of the constant fire Corbin crap.
I also disagree with the thought that he is not a middle tier coach. When we had Al and Sap we were around middle tier in the results, which would most likely indicate he was a middle of the pack coach. Not every coach gets an Eric Spoelstra situation. I've seen nothing that tells me he's an excellent coach, and yet he has coached a couple of title winning teams. I do think things have more to do with players than coaching.

 

[Dr. Jones]

thin skins in this thread

 

[Jazz Spazz]

blablabla

 

[green]

And you think they quit because of what specifically? We knew the Jazz would suck this year, the Jazz knew they would suck this year.
Most of the games we lose because our bench sucks.

Our bench sucks...that same bench that has Burks and Kanter on it, right? Also, look at the players you can play:

PG - Burke, Garrett, Hayward, Burks. I don't think you say the bench sucks for the PG position
SG - Hayward, Burks. Maybe a little thin here
SF - Jefferson, Williams, Hayward. Bench doesn't suck for this position
PF - Favors, Williams, Kanter, Evans. Again, doesn't suck.
C - Favors, Kanter, Gobert. Maybe a little inexperienced, but I wouldn't say that our bench sucks here.

So, where exactly is this sucky bench? And remember, it isn't injuries either, because the Jazz were playing .500 ball when Burke came back from his injury. Then the team quit on Corbin. So, while the team does has it's limitations, Corbin shares a lion share of the blame. Kanter has been in this system three years now. Same with Burks. And Hayward. I bet Sloan and Johnson would have built a better offense around Kanter, Favors, Hayward and Burks the last couple of seasons. The defense has regressed. Kanter has regressed. Hayward has regressed. Gobert hasn't gotten any better. Burke has regressed from the middle of the season.

Against the Knicks we were in the game until Favors left the game with 4 mins left in the 3rd qtr, then they were down by around 10 when he came back. They lost by around 10.

I agree. Why was Ian Clark in there during that period? Why was Kanter left in there so long? Why hasn't he developed a defensive system that can hide Kanter, while taking advantage of Kanter's offense?

I'm not seeing this from your perspective obviously. I don't think they have quit. I see they are discouraged at times.
I also see this as something that can be solved by a player or two from the draft, and a free agent or two.... and a bench that does not suck.

As to Corbin staying or going, I'm right in the middle. I don't hate him and want him gone. I won't cry if he stays. I also hope the Jazz FO explores all other coaching candidates they can to get a coach that can handle teaching, motivating, x's and o's, defense, and offense.

People talk about thibs and his amazing defense, yes he has a good defensive team. His team sucks offensively and if in the Western Conference they would not make the playoffs. Even with a good scheme and good defense you still need good players and the ability to score. What he needs is to get Rose back at full strength, and someone to fill deng's role.

Boozer plays 29 minutes a game. Jefferson plays on one of the top defensive teams in the NBA. You don't think Favors has the talent to match Noah's defense? You don't think that Hayward and Burks and Burke have more talent than the players playing for Chicago? You don't think Kanter should be around Boozer's level three years in (18 pts, 9 rebs)?

What the Jazz need are good players who try all the time, and not just on one side of the ball, or part of the game. You can coach something all you want, if the players can't or don't do it it's not pretty. Is that the coaches fault or the players fault? Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

Look at Boozer, Al, Millsap, Korver, etc and the level of defense they are playing on different teams. All are much better now that they are out of Utah. Why would they care all of the sudden, as soon as they left Utah?

Also, whose job is it to put players in positions to succeed, so that they will want to try harder? Who is easier to get rid of? 5 young players all top 12 picks, or a coach? Which is the quicker fix?

There isn't a single reason to keep Corbin. He has done some things ok [like revive Jefferson's career, starting Marvin, Burks if FINALLY playing SG (it only took Corbin YEARS to do this)], but he has done a lot of things wrong [team defense, Hayward playing PG (what is Corbin's deal with putting non-PG players in at PG?), Kanter's devlopment, Burke's development, Hayward regressing, the record being abysmal, comparing him to what Horny has done in PHX, etc, etc, etc, four playoff games in three years, etc, etc, etc the team getting worse every year].

 

[green]

That's fine. If he is not resigned because our defense sucked and he was judged on the defense, I have no problems with that.
I also try to keep in mind that every year he has been given a poor situation to deal with as I look at all that has gone on and the results.

I do get tired of the constant fire Corbin crap.
I also disagree with the thought that he is not a middle tier coach. When we had Al and Sap we were around middle tier in the results, which would most likely indicate he was a middle of the pack coach. Not every coach gets an Eric Spoelstra situation. I've seen nothing that tells me he's an excellent coach, and yet he has coached a couple of title winning teams. I do think things have more to do with players than coaching.

He is a worse than middle tier coach. He took the team to the playoffs, we were swept. KOC then improved the roster, and we missed the playoffs. Corbin somehow took a playoff team, with an improved roster and made it worse.

And, I'm sick of hearing about how Lindsay set Corbin up to fail. Horny has less talent than Corbin. Look at where PHX is. Look at where Utah is. Heck, Boston, LA, Sacramento, Detroit and maybe even Cleveland all have less talent than Corbin has...

 

[jimmy eat jazz]

That's fine. If he is not resigned because our defense sucked and he was judged on the defense, I have no problems with that.
I also try to keep in mind that every year he has been given a poor situation to deal with as I look at all that has gone on and the results.

I do get tired of the constant fire Corbin crap.
I also disagree with the thought that he is not a middle tier coach. When we had Al and Sap we were around middle tier in the results, which would most likely indicate he was a middle of the pack coach. Not every coach gets an Eric Spoelstra situation. I've seen nothing that tells me he's an excellent coach, and yet he has coached a couple of title winning teams. I do think things have more to do with players than coaching.

Even if he has been given a poor situation, to me the primary questions is: Does the team performance exceed the sum of its parts? This is particularly important for teams with less talent. In 2011-2012 and 2012-13, he had a mediocre team, and it performed mediocre, even missing the playoffs in 2012-13. In 2013-14, he has a poor team, and it has performed poorly. There is no evidence that he can take a team and get it to play at a higher level than what its individual parts are. Given where they are, for the Jazz to succeed, that is exactly what they need. Corbin has shown conclusively that he is not capable of doing this. He's had 3.5 years to show it, and he has not.

Why is wanting to get rid of Corbin crap--if he's not doing the job? Isn't that a perfectly reasonable response? I want hi gone, and I don't consider it crap. I consider it an informed conclusion based now on going on 400 data points.

I can see how you'd get a bit weary of the constant fire Corbin drumbeat here, however. It can verge on a bit hysterical at times.

 

[Jazz Spazz]

Our bench sucks...that same bench that has Burks and Kanter on it, right? Also, look at the players you can play:

PG - Burke, Garrett, Hayward, Burks. I don't think you say the bench sucks for the PG position
SG - Hayward, Burks. Maybe a little thin here
SF - Jefferson, Williams, Hayward. Bench doesn't suck for this position
PF - Favors, Williams, Kanter, Evans. Again, doesn't suck.
C - Favors, Kanter, Gobert. Maybe a little inexperienced, but I wouldn't say that our bench sucks here.

So, where exactly is this sucky bench? And remember, it isn't injuries either, because the Jazz were playing .500 ball when Burke came back from his injury. Then the team quit on Corbin. So, while the team does has it's limitations, Corbin shares a lion share of the blame. Kanter has been in this system three years now. Same with Burks. And Hayward. I bet Sloan and Johnson would have built a better offense around Kanter, Favors, Hayward and Burks the last couple of seasons. The defense has regressed. Kanter has regressed. Hayward has regressed. Gobert hasn't gotten any better. Burke has regressed from the middle of the season.

I stand corrected. I remember many times where we lost games because of the bench, but according to the stats the bench is average. It is the starters that lose the games for us. It has as much to do with their offense as it does their defense.

It might be the right move to hire a different coach.
Don't be surprised though when it looks different, but the results are much the same.
A new system for players that can't/wont run the current system may end up in the same spot.

 

[Jazz Spazz]

So... anyone hear about the locker room trouble? Got any deets?
Maybe some thick skinned poster out there has some contacts and can get the skinny.

 

[mellow]

So here is what I concluded. After the jazz got off to a terrible start This vet guy named richard Jackson, oops I mean mark Jefferson, started a rift in the locker room. He said that he was a better primary option than Hayward....half the locker room followed him including Rush Biedrens, Gobert and Ian Clark. The others followed Hayward, except for favors who could not be bothered, and john Lucas who wasn't invited to any of the meetings.

Anyway Ty Corbin, being the players coach that he is, brokered a peace agreement between the two waring camps, wherein Jefferson was promised 30+ minutes per game for the remainder of the season if he would back off. But the price was hanging his fellow rebels out to dry. It was decided they would pay for their crimes by being banished to the bench with no hope of starting or continuing their careers.

The brouhaha after last nights game was Hayward erupting after Ian Clark logged minutes in another game, this was a clear violation of paragraph 4 of the peace treaty and Hayward demanded it stop.

This season cannot end soon enough for the players, the fans, the media or jazzfanz.

And in case any of you were wondering, yes, I am feeling exceptionally snarky today.
Go jazz.

 

[akirac73]

So here is what I concluded. After the jazz got off to a terrible start This vet guy named richard Jackson, oops I mean mark Jefferson, started a rift in the locker room. He said that he was a better primary option than Hayward....half the locker room followed him including Rush Biedrens, Gobert and Ian Clark. The others followed Hayward, except for favors who could not be bothered, and john Lucas who wasn't invited to any of the meetings.

Anyway Ty Corbin, being the players coach that he is, brokered a peace agreement between the two waring camps, wherein Jefferson was promised 30+ minutes per game for the remainder of the season if he would back off. But the price was hanging his fellow rebels out to dry. It was decided they would pay for their crimes by being banished to the bench with no hope of starting or continuing their careers.

The brouhaha after last nights game was Hayward erupting after Ian Clark logged minutes in another game, this was a clear violation of paragraph 4 of the peace treaty and Hayward demanded it stop.

This season cannot end soon enough for the players, the fans, the media or jazzfanz.

And in case any of you were wondering, yes, I am feeling exceptionally snarky today.
Go jazz.

Team Hayward vs. Team Jefferson.
They should battle this out via three point shooting contest.