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Looking for genuine discourse re:Jay-Z/NBA

Sirkickyass said:
I have no idea how One Brow has the patience to be the face of this particular issue. Ten minutes in and all I can think about is how Dave Chapelle and Huey from the Boondocks would be reading this. It's almost unreal.
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and all I could think of when reading this is to paraphrase that guy who was Ross Perot's running mate and his comment to Dan Quayle...

"I served with One Brow. I knew One Brow. One Brow was a friend of mine. And you, sir, are no One Brow"
 
RobDMB said:
Sure, pick something out to redirect the conversation as you please... Purely a reference to my personal musical preferences, nothing more.
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Sorry dude, you've revealed yourself. A cultural heritage you don't identify with is incapable of making music. It can only make "music."

How about you take a stab at answering my direct question about why racism only applies for victims who are African Americans? I'm genuinely interested to hear your explanation.
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In Western culture, racism is not confined to simply having adverse effects against African Americans. It has effects on people of all races.

Your question, however, is steeped in the notion that all relations between races start from some equal footing where people of color are equally free to exercise power over white persons in everyday society as whites are to exercise power over them. Virtually everything we know about the history of this hemisphere of the globe and everything we know about the sociological trends of this country is in direct opposition to the premises and assumptions that you're walking in with in positing a "question." In sum, the answer to what is wrong with your throughline here is "everything."

You are probably incapable of having equivalent experiences because the entire history of humanity has worked to put you in a position where you experience invisible privilege that consists of all the ways you are magically not inconvenienced or benefit because of the color of your skin. A handful of people calling you a name in New York City is not equivalent to widespread social presumptions about you.
 
Stoked said:
I was looking for the quote you used and must have missed it. Wanted to address RobDMB.

Obviously there is a difference between a white individual (or any other non black individual) using those terms and a black individual using them.

Same as there is a difference in a white individual saying similar things about white people and a non white individual saying them.
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I see what you're saying Stoked. That isn't a great example. I just think it seems fishy to denounce the use of a term and then spout it out every day. If you want the use of that term to go away, stop using it yourself.

What I'm really trying to understand here (from people who are more experienced on the issue than I am) is why racism is only an issue relatable to "black" people (I'm not sure what term is more desirable to use here...). I think it seems more than a little irritating for people to dismiss racism purely because it didn't happen to a black person. I don't care if it is a million times more prevalent against blacks than it is against whites, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
 
RobDMB said:
Why does race HAVE to be an issue?
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It might have something to do with 100's years of slavery, followed by another one hundred years trapped under the weight of racism, followed by 50 years of living in the shadows of previous racism that has created structural issues.

I understand white people want to forget the crimes of our fathers and pretend they never happened.
 
franklin said:
It might have something to do with 100's years of slavery, followed by another one hundred years trapped under the weight of racism, followed by 50 years of living in the shadows of previous racism that has created structural issues.

I understand white people want to forget the crimes of our fathers and pretend they never happened.
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I see your point and I think that does happen fairly often. Way to much as a matter of fact. But some of it, from my perspective at least, is that it is sometimes thrown at us to hold us accountable for the "sins of our fathers". That is a yoke I won't take up.

Clearly there is unequal footing. I am more interested in erasing that than I am answering for the crimes perpetrated by others before I was born (for example, slavery).

Edit: But I can certainly understand, not emotionally of course, why some people would want a reckoning and atoneement for that.
 
Stoked said:
I see your point and I think that does happen fairly often. Way to much as a matter of fact. But some of it, from my perspective at least, is that it is sometimes thrown at us to hold us accountable for the "sins of our fathers". That is a yoke I won't take up.

Clearly there is unequal footing. I am more interested in erasing that than I am answering for the crimes perpetrated by others before I was born (for example, slavery).
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Very very few ask that you answer for it.

There's a difference between demanding that persons alive today be held culpable and asking that they acknowledge, recognize, and appreciate the persistent effects of historical events.

Much of the type of discussion you see, including a demand that racism against whites be taken seriously, are of the type that try to minimize those historical effects and legacy. That's where people get rankled.
 
Sirkickyass said:
Very very few ask that you answer for it.

There's a difference between demanding that persons alive today be held culpable and asking that they acknowledge, recognize, and appreciate the persistent effects of historical events.

Much of the type of discussion you see, including a demand that racism against whites be taken seriously, are of the type that try to minimize those historical effects and legacy. That's where people get rankled.
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That is a very good point Kicky. When one takes the historical context of it into play of course the minorities would have the greater injsutice. Especially blacks. Uncomparable.

Then there perhaps is a great divide. One side weants to move forward from here as a fresh start and one wants to move forward from here with full acknowledgment of the past. Each side has a hard time coming to terms with the other sides POV for various reasons.

Edit: I would like to make note that if that is the case, it seems completely reasonable, that the anger felt over that horrible injustice, is often directed at those not of their race today. That is rankling as well.
 
Sirkickyass said:
Sorry dude, you've revealed yourself. A cultural heritage you don't identify with is incapable of making music. It can only make "music."
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C'mon, stop putting words in my mouth. Revealed myself as what, exactly? Does musical taste make me a racist or bigot? I simply don't like listening to rap. The sounds, the subject matter, the simplicity of the musical structure (i.e. sampling other musicians because you don't have the skill to play an instrument yourself), etc. How can you assume anything about my heritage based purely on my preference of music? All kinds of "races" produce rap music. How do you know that my exposure to rap is not primarily referring to Russian rap? or any other nation's rap?

Sirkickyass said:
In Western culture, racism is not confined to simply having adverse effects against African Americans. It has effects on people of all races.

Your question, however, is steeped in the notion that all relations between races start from some equal footing where people of color are equally free to exercise power over white persons in everyday society as whites are to exercise power over them. Virtually everything we know about the history of this hemisphere of the globe and everything we know about the sociological trends of this country is in direct opposition to the premises and assumptions that you're walking in with in positing a "question." In sum, the answer to what is wrong with your throughline here is "everything."

You are probably incapable of having equivalent experiences because the entire history of humanity has worked to put you in a position where you experience invisible privilege that consists of all the ways you are magically not inconvenienced or benefit because of the color of your skin. A handful of people calling you a name in New York City is not equivalent to widespread social presumptions about you.
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Forgive me for questioning your superior moral and intellectual authority, how dare I! /sarcasm

So are you saying that the history of slavery in this country and mistreatment of black people has inherently put a lot of them on a lower socio-economical footing than a lot of white people (I'm not arguing this by the way, I agree with this)? Does a person have to be in a position of power to practice racism? Your version of racism and my version of racism do not seem to be the same thing. I've been operating under the Merriam-Webster definition of racism:

Merriam-Webster said:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/racism

: poor treatment of or violence against people because of their race

: the belief that some races of people are better than others
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Can you please define your version of racism? You are trying to escalate my original comment to a level of complexity I did not address.

When Jay-Z wears the emblem of a group that believes they are inherently better than white people based on the color of their skin, is that not a form of racism? That is a behavior that encourages further racism, not the ideal that we are equal. THAT is the idea I commented on. I did not explicitly or implicitly say that Jay-Z's necklace makes me feel oppressed or less equal than he.

At the same time, there are a lot of black athletes/entertainers that have much more money, power, and influence than I'll ever have. Does that mean that I could experience racism at their hands? If Jay-Z called me "cracker" in a belittling way just because I'm white, is that not racism?

Your highly contextual version of racism is not what I was referring to in my original post. AND you have assumed a lot about me based on a few posts in an internet message board.
 
RobDMB said:
C'mon, stop putting words in my mouth. Revealed myself as what, exactly? Does musical taste make me a racist or bigot? I simply don't like listening to rap. The sounds, the subject matter, the simplicity of the musical structure (i.e. sampling other musicians because you don't have the skill to play an instrument yourself), etc. How can you assume anything about my heritage based purely on my preference of music? All kinds of "races" produce rap music. How do you know that my exposure to rap is not primarily referring to Russian rap? or any other nation's rap?



Forgive me for questioning your superior moral and intellectual authority, how dare I! /sarcasm

So are you saying that the history of slavery in this country and mistreatment of black people has inherently put a lot of them on a lower socio-economical footing than a lot of white people (I'm not arguing this by the way, I agree with this)? Does a person have to be in a position of power to practice racism? Your version of racism and my version of racism do not seem to be the same thing. I've been operating under the Merriam-Webster definition of racism:



Can you please define your version of racism? You are trying to escalate my original comment to a level of complexity I did not address.

When Jay-Z wears the emblem of a group that believes they are inherently better than white people based on the color of their skin, is that not a form of racism? That is a behavior that encourages further racism, not the ideal that we are equal. THAT is the idea I commented on. I did not explicitly or implicitly say that Jay-Z's necklace makes me feel oppressed or less equal than he.

At the same time, there are a lot of black athletes/entertainers that have much more money, power, and influence than I'll ever have. Does that mean that I could experience racism at their hands? If Jay-Z called me "cracker" in a belittling way just because I'm white, is that not racism?

Your highly contextual version of racism is not what I was referring to in my original post. AND you have assumed a lot about me based on a few posts in an internet message board.
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Certainly not. And I do not think Kicky is suggesting that. I do think that he is pointing out, and I would agree, that expressions of racism from a person in a position of power carry a greater weight even if they are no more racist than that from a person in a position of weakness.

Please correct me if I am wrong kicky.
 
Someone revealed them self because they don't like rap? Well, I'm gonna reveal myself then. I don't like country "music," blues "music," and most pop "music." Purely off of my cultural differences too. Smh.
 
Sirkickyass said:
Sorry dude, you've revealed yourself. A cultural heritage you don't identify with is incapable of making music. It can only make "music."
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LMAO @ this.

He revealed himself because he thinks rap isn't music? Unless if you're saying that only black people can create rap music…but you wouldn't say that, would you kicky?
 
Hantlers said:
LMAO @ this.

He revealed himself because he thinks rap isn't music? Unless if you're saying that only black people can create rap music…but you wouldn't say that, would you kicky?
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Not at all.

His choice, in that context, to use quotes to indicate that something of a different culture than he identifies with was not real or less than was revealing.
 
Sirkickyass said:
Not at all.

His choice, in that context, to use quotes to indicate that something of a different culture than he identifies with was not real or less than was revealing.
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Literally all he was saying is that he didn't think rap was music…and that reveals him as what? Somebody who has good taste in music? Somebody who has bad taste in music? What does it reveal him as?
 
Hantlers said:
Literally all he was saying is that he didn't think rap was music…and that reveals him as what? Somebody who has good taste in music? Somebody who has bad taste in music? What does it reveal him as?
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I think you might want to look at the post again. It was in no way about the quality of musical genres.
 
Sirkickyass said:
I think you might want to look at the post again. It was in no way about the quality of musical genres.
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"For example, a black rapper that spouts racist slurs all throughout his " music" and then if a white person uses the same words he is offended, angry, and wishes/ threatens revenge. "

Rapper indicates that he talking about rap, which he then calls "music".

To me, that does not indicate that white rap is good rap, but black rap is bad, he's just saying that rap isn't music.
 
Kicky obviously has his own point of view with this regardless of what I intended to say. He is heavily implying that because I don't like rap music I must be a racist... which is totally and utterly absurd. It's like saying I hate Europeans if I'm not into classical symphony. Those things do not have mutually exclusive relationships.

I have tried my best to clarify myself, but I'm just getting veiled punches back.

Let me be clear about one thing: I hold no animosity towards blacks/african americans/whatever-the-PC-terminology-these-days purely by the color of their skin. I associate on a daily basis with people from many different cultural/racial backgrounds and I can call many of them my friends regardless of their affiliations on that level.

If anyone here wants to try and label me somehow, go right ahead, I don't answer to you.
 
RobDMB said:
C'mon, stop putting words in my mouth. Revealed myself as what, exactly? Does musical taste make me a racist or bigot? I simply don't like listening to rap. The sounds, the subject matter, the simplicity of the musical structure (i.e. sampling other musicians because you don't have the skill to play an instrument yourself), etc. How can you assume anything about my heritage based purely on my preference of music? All kinds of "races" produce rap music. How do you know that my exposure to rap is not primarily referring to Russian rap? or any other nation's rap?
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If anything, you've revealed yourself as ignorant. Your example for 'simplicity of the musical structure' is hilarious to me. I will explain why, and in turn hope to alleviate your ignorance on this particular subject.

I'll let you do your own reading and research on the origin of Hip-Hop, but the act of rapping over beatboxing or samples/loops isn't for lack of skill to play an instrument but because the artists couldn't afford the instruments so they used their bodies.
 
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