Do you want our pick to convey this year?

Tremendous Upside said:

Yeah... Lauri better start thinking about putting his house on the market because he's not finishing next season in Utah.

He simply doesn't fit this timeline.

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There's definitely a not insignificant chance of that happening, but it's IMO waaay too early to say that as a foregone conclusion. I don't think KO was a massive plan of The Future anyway, and they obviously didn't believe Ochai would pan out. I really hate the Simone trade, but while I like him a lot as a player, I don't see him as that important a piece, after all.

hgb said:

There's definitely a not insignificant chance of that happening, but it's IMO waaay too early to say that as a foregone conclusion. I don't think KO was a massive plan of The Future anyway, and they obviously didn't believe Ochai would pan out. I really hate the Simone trade, but while I like him a lot as a player, I don't see him as that important a piece, after all.

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Do those two picks move the needle for future championship run though? Is there an argument to be made that making the playoffs would have moved it more? I would argue that for the Simone trade, seeing and being able to match his offer sheet is valuable in itself and if no one goes crazy and you get him on a team friendly deal.... that moves the needle way more than the trade return.

Or was it about retaining this years pick? Did they somehow calculate that we would turn into a .333 team due to those trades? Possibly, but its damn risky keeping Dunn, Sexton and JC in that case, and immediately telling to the media that they wont intervene for the rest of the year (Tony Jones at least said so with conviction).

Plus they didnt make one such trade where they gave away a younger guy who was playing NBA rotation minutes for some late draft prayer pick. They made two such trades.

hgb said:

There's definitely a not insignificant chance of that happening, but it's IMO waaay too early to say that as a foregone conclusion. I don't think KO was a massive plan of The Future anyway, and they obviously didn't believe Ochai would pan out. I really hate the Simone trade, but while I like him a lot as a player, I don't see him as that important a piece, after all.

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Also Zanik said after the trades that they "dont care if the pick converts or not" which is the same song the beat writers have been singing to us all year long.

Well how can you not care about a top 10 pick but then care about two picks in the 25-35 range in the same draft enough to give up on making a playoff push, punt on Ochai and give up Simones RFA rights?

hgb said:

There's definitely a not insignificant chance of that happening, but it's IMO waaay too early to say that as a foregone conclusion. I don't think KO was a massive plan of The Future anyway

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Even if they don't, the FO must be aware of the fact that Lauri is now at the stage in his career where you really have to start extracting substantial value from him in some way as he gets closer to 30 – either via trade or trying to win with him.

Just keeping him on the roster with a bunch of kids while paying him the max would be the definition of insanity. I don't think the FO is gonna do that.

IMO Lauri is getting flipped. It's the only logical path with the way things are going.

Tremendous Upside said:

Even if they don't, the FO must be aware of the fact that Lauri is now at the stage in his career where you really have to start extracting substantial value from him in some way as he gets closer to 30 – either via trade or trying to win with him.

Just keeping him on the roster with a bunch of kids while paying him the max would be the definition of insanity. I don't think the FO is gonna do that.

IMO Lauri is getting flipped. It's the only logical path with the way things are going.

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Would adding an all star to the team via trade or free agency to team up with Lauri be logical as well?

I don't get why people think at this point there should be some sort of linear plan.

Until you get a second top 30 guy, you can't make any kind of concrete plan. Until then you just build assets so when the time comes you can capitalize.

Crazy stat from Locke:

Stars miss 40% of the games in Utah. next highest is Denver.

Utah will always have an inflated home record, making tanking very difficult

Tanktastic said:

Weird comment seeing that not a single player on the team has said anything negative about any teammate. You make it sound as if the whole team has been going out saying that these guys are ****. There hasn't been any lashing out, no taking anything out on rookies, pissing about them. Just a complete strawman.

And for two years we've heard about "building the culture". And Hardy, his staff and leaders on the team have worked really, really hard on it. "The culture" supposedly is team basketball, passing the ball, getting everyone involved, unselfishness etc. I would say, considering the results, they've done a pretty good job at that.

Now top management has, again, made a complete turnaround. They've shown and demanded that the culture now is "Individual development". What top management wants to see and the team to do is develop individuals. At the same time they've also made it clear that their vision of the future Jazz team includes for sure only one player from the current team and a max. of four.

If the new culture is individual development and most of the crew isn't seen as part of the future, then why would anyone expect the players to be anything else but selfish?


And they have absolutely behaved professionally. Or are you saying they should've been all happy beaming smiles in the locker room?

For their own future contracts it's key to get mine, look out for #1 and be sure to put up the best possible individual stats. So, why on earth might they play that way...

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I didn't make it up. Plenty of stuff in the Triple Team and in Andy's Twitter feed. You can see it on the court as well. Not a strawman at all. They don't come out and say Tay Henny (or anyone) is ***. Plenty of bad body language and interactions and selfishness on the court.

- Guys not making the obvious pass to the corner or open 3 shooter to take on 3 guys at the rim for a horrible shot.
- Sexton having a back and forth with JC after Collin takes a shot... followed up by Sexton sending an aggressive bounce pass to Key. I've been getting bad vibes from JC and Collin most of the season.
- Guys standing on the perimeter with their hands up cuz they were open and pouting while the Warriors go get a layup.

Its fine if its a one game frustration and now they go out and play more as a team. Its fine to feel the frustration of what management did. Its fine for them to feel not valued by management (one thing Andy noted). If that frustration is directed at teammates young or old then I think its misplaced. Its overreacting in the wrong place and I hope it doesn't last 30 games.

I am even fine with players being frustrated with the coach... Sexton should be playing more. full stop. Walker's role has been yanked around because of John and making sure his value is maximized. Dunn is the best perimeter defender on the team by a wide margin and is seemingly deployed sparingly.

They are not supposed to be happy. I'd be pissed in the locker room. Like I said I hope its a temporary thing though and that after the AS break they can process and get back to work. What is best for their individual value is to work together.

Saint Cy of JFC said:

Crazy stat from Locke:

Stars miss 40% of the games in Utah. next highest is Denver.

Utah will always have an inflated home record, making tanking very difficult

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That and competent coaching. If teams play hard and smart you will win some games where you are out talented. Hardy almost has to play along... and I don't mean intentional losing, but playing developmental players where vets could play. We won some games and were close in others with JC, Lauri, Sexton all on the sidelines.

Saint Cy of JFC said:

I don't get why people think at this point there should be some sort of linear plan.

Until you get a second top 30 guy, you can't make any kind of concrete plan. Until then you just build assets so when the time comes you can capitalize.

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Right but I think of it as directions/paths vs rigid plans. The plan right now is to get another top 30 guy... if that path doesn't become open soon... then what?

Handlogten's Heros said:

I didn't make it up. Plenty of stuff in the Triple Team and in Andy's Twitter feed. You can see it on the court as well.

If that frustration is directed at teammates young or old then I think its misplaced. Its overreacting in the wrong place and I hope it doesn't last 30 games.

They are not supposed to be happy. I'd be pissed in the locker room. Like I said I hope its a temporary thing though and that after the AS break they can process and get back to work.

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You did. Andy said nothing of the kind. What Andy actually wrote: "But it wasn’t because they don’t care if they win or lose anymore — it’s because they’re frustrated as can possibly be about the state of the team. And they didn’t really care if the media knew about it. In particular, they feel like they were sold a bill of goods."

They're frustrated and unhappy with the FO first being "let's get to the playoffs, yeah!" and then cutting their knees from under them.

And in his tweets Andy later wrote that he thinks that they think lower of the replacements than consensus. Completely Andy's own thinking on that one.

So, not a single player on the team has directed anything negative about their teammates. If you want someone to be mad at, be mad at the top management - as the players are.

Handlogten's Heros said:

What is best for their individual value is to work together.

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No it isn't. "Working together" doesn't get anyone a new contract with another team. What you'll see going forward is a lot of "individual development" from a lot of guys, because that's the strategy that has been set.

Tanktastic said:

You did. Andy said nothing of the kind. What Andy actually wrote: "But it wasn’t because they don’t care if they win or lose anymore — it’s because they’re frustrated as can possibly be about the state of the team. And they didn’t really care if the media knew about it. In particular, they feel like they were sold a bill of goods."

They're frustrated and unhappy with the FO first being "let's get to the playoffs, yeah!" and then cutting their knees from under them.

And in his tweets Andy later wrote that he thinks that they think lower of the replacements than consensus. Completely Andy's own thinking on that one.

So, not a single player on the team has directed anything negative about their teammates. If you want someone to be mad at, be mad at the top management - as the players are.


No it isn't. "Working together" doesn't get anyone a new contract with another team. What you'll see going forward is a lot of "individual development" from a lot of guys, because that's the strategy that has been set.

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Taking contested layups with three guys around you that don't hit the rim instead of making a basic read where you throw it to the corner and get a potential assist is not going to help your value. Sorry.

Will have to re-read Andy's article but don't have time now.

Handlogten's Heros said:

They are not supposed to be happy. I'd be pissed in the locker room. Like I said I hope its a temporary thing though and that after the AS break they can process and get back to work. What is best for their individual value is to work together.

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Then you are saying you would have done the exact same thing as them. I don’t get what your problem is. Andy never said they directed their frustration at Hendricks, just that they are mad and that they know that Hendricks will not help them win. If they replaced all the senior engineers on my team and replaced them with interns, I’m gonna be pissed. That frustration isn’t necessarily directed at the interns just because it’s obvious they aren’t good.

I always say this, but it’s never as good or as bad as it seems. I’m sure Lauri and co will pick themselves and try to win the best they can with what they have (until the FO pulls the plug on them)…..but what happened is expected so soon since the trade.

I’m not expecting the players to hold in their frustration because it indirectly highlights what everyone already knows. The fact that we’re talking about this validates their frustration. This is season isn’t about winning, it’s now about coddling the rookies. Giving them free minutes, free starting position, making sure they don’t feel bad when they suck. I’m not saying this is bad for the franchise, but it’s going to piss off the other players. You have to deal with the consequences of quitting on your players.

KqWIN said:

Then you are saying you would have done the exact same thing as them. I don’t get what your problem is. Andy never said they directed their frustration at Hendricks, just that they are mad and that they know that Hendricks will not help them win. If they replaced all the senior engineers on my team and replaced them with interns, I’m gonna be pissed. That frustration isn’t necessarily directed at the interns just because it’s obvious they aren’t good.

I always say this, but it’s never as good or as bad as it seems. I’m sure Lauri and co will pick themselves and try to win the best they can with what they have (until the FO pulls the plug on them)…..but what happened is expected so soon since the trade.

I’m not expecting the players to hold in their frustration because it indirectly highlights what everyone already knows. The fact that we’re talking about this validates their frustration. This is season isn’t about winning, it’s now about coddling the rookies. Giving them free minutes, free starting position, making sure they don’t feel bad when they suck. I’m not saying this is bad for the franchise, but it’s going to piss off the other players. You have to deal with the consequences of quitting on your players.

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Here's the line:

In the mean time, this is the story about this franchise at the moment: the Jazz have a lot of players that aren’t happy about who they’re playing with, and more importantly, who they’re not.

Another one:

I think Hendricks’ teammates see him working hard, as do his coaches. But they also know what they’ve seen from him in practice isn’t good enough to help them compete right now. He’ll need to win them over with better play — likely through tremendous off-season work.

Factor in the selfish play and bad body language. Its like when Lebron says "These are the guys we have so gotta figure it out".

Again I am fine with them being frustrated and it trickling onto the court for a few games. It felt excessive against the warriors... so hopefully they get their frustration out and start trying again. The biggest issue against the warriors wasn't that KO and Simone weren't there... it was the attitude towards them not being there.

If you have your engineering team removed and replaced by interns that sucks. Go complain to management. Be a little pissy in your first few meeting or whatever. But refusing to do the job or help them won't help anyone in the situation long term. Doing that long term kinda makes you an *******... especially if you are being paid millions of dollars.

So have your moment but at some point just do the job and live with the results. In the offseason go find another place of employment if you are that frustrated.

Handlogten's Heros said:

Here's the line:

In the mean time, this is the story about this franchise at the moment: the Jazz have a lot of players that aren’t happy about who they’re playing with, and more importantly, who they’re not.

Another one:

I think Hendricks’ teammates see him working hard, as do his coaches. But they also know what they’ve seen from him in practice isn’t good enough to help them compete right now. He’ll need to win them over with better play — likely through tremendous off-season work.

Factor in the selfish play and bad body language. Its like when Lebron says "These are the guys we have so gotta figure it out".

Again I am fine with them being frustrated and it trickling onto the court for a few games. It felt excessive against the warriors... so hopefully they get their frustration out and start trying again. The biggest issue against the warriors wasn't that KO and Simone weren't there... it was the attitude towards them not being there.

If you have your engineering team removed and replaced by interns that sucks. Go complain to management. Be a little pissy in your first few meeting or whatever. But refusing to do the job or help them won't help anyone in the situation long term. Doing that long term kinda makes you an *******... especially if you are being paid millions of dollars.

So have your moment but at some point just do the job and live with the results. In the offseason go find another place of employment if you are that frustrated.

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First of all, the first quoted statement literally follows up with “and more importantly”. Andy is literally saying the more important part is who they are not playing with.

Secondly, none of that says the frustration in the locker room was directed at Hendricks. Two things can be true, the players can not enjoy playing with Hendricks and their outward frustration can also not be directed at Hendricks. It is not remotely close to what LeBron did. LeBron actually said it to the media.

Lastly, of course he will have to change their opinion. This is the NBA. They aren’t going to think he’s good until he’s good. What possible expectation do you have for them? He win them over with his smile? Get out of here.

You say get mad at the FO and not at Hendricks. There is nothing that shows this frustration was directed at Hendricks and not the FO. In fact, the direct quote says it’s the players who are gone that are most important. I say, don’t get mad at the players for the way they’re acting, get upset at the FO. This is the expectation when you trade away 3 rotation players for zero.

Handlogten's Heros said:

If you have your engineering team removed and replaced by interns that sucks. Go complain to management. Be a little pissy in your first few meeting or whatever.

So have your moment but at some point just do the job and live with the results. In the offseason go find another place of employment if you are that frustrated.

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By that's exactly what you've been complaining about and continue to complain about. What. Which is it?

And you really want Lauri to leave in the summer? Or maybe the FO could treat them a little better? Even if they make the trades, come in, explain what you did, take questions, let the players let out some steam. But I'm sure that's just the top quality management in the NBA.

KqWIN said:

First of all, the first quoted statement literally follows up with “and more importantly”. Andy is literally saying the more important part is who they are not playing with.

Secondly, none of that says the frustration in the locker room was directed at Hendricks. Two things can be true, the players can not enjoy playing with Hendricks and their outward frustration can also not be directed at Hendricks. It is not remotely close to what LeBron did. LeBron actually said it to the media.

Lastly, of course he will have to change their opinion. This is the NBA. They aren’t going to think he’s good until he’s good. What possible expectation do you have for them? He win them over with his smile? Get out of here.

You say get mad at the FO and not at Hendricks. There is nothing that shows this frustration was directed at Hendricks and not the FO. In fact, the direct quote says it’s the players who are gone that are most important. I say, don’t get mad at the players for the way they’re acting, get upset at the FO. This is the expectation when you trade away 3 rotation players for zero.

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It is not just Hendricks. It is frustration with one another. Its out there on the court. Its obvious. Hendricks gets his fair share sure. It does not have to be directly at Taylor or anyone but when you are frustrated with who you are playing with and don't care that everyone knows about it... it is implied that the frustration is with the new guys. Saying... hey nothing personal I really like working with the person you replaced more than you. Isn't a whole lot better than saying I don't think you are good enough.

He will have to earn it. I get that. But not throwing it to him in the corner when he's open ain't gonna help him prove it. Defensively its on him to make sure he impacts the game with his activity.

Its not just Taylor... its the bad body language with one another and not trusting teammates (not just Taylor). And for the 12th time. I'm cool with it being a week or so to blow off the steam. Literally said it in the OP I hope they got it out of their system and can now go to work... even if it isn't what they hoped.

DL would have just said that's another ingredient in the kak.

Tanktastic said:

By that's exactly what you've been complaining about and continue to complain about. What. Which is it?

And you really want Lauri to leave in the summer? Or maybe the FO could treat them a little better? Even if they make the trades, come in, explain what you did, take questions, let the players let out some steam. But I'm sure that's just the top quality management in the NBA.

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Huh... I said I hope they got it out of their system. I'm fine with the reaction. If this is what continues through the end of the season then its an overreaction.

I don't want Lauri to leave... but he should let the team know that he will. What I want doesn't matter. Its the NBA... trades happen. I gave the Simone trade a C+. I did not like it. I get that they don't like it. Let the frustration out. Long term if the frustration manifests on the court in the ways it did then yeah he should ask out.

homeytennis said:

DL would have just said that's another ingredient in the kak.

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DL would have said the phone didn't ring and never made a trade.