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The Non-Jazz NBA Thread in the Jazz Section

83 points for an entire game

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KqWIN said:
We are way too quick to say this guy or that guy is a ceiling limiter when they are not in a good situation.
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Any time you’re within any kind of quasi-contention and you don’t win it all, your guy or template is a ceiling limiter. When you win, your guy or structure is the new winning model “in today’s NBA.”
 
infection said:
Any time you’re within any kind of quasi-contention and you don’t win it all, your guy or template is a ceiling limiter. When you win, your guy or structure is the new winning model “in today’s NBA.”
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It is the way

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KqWIN said:
They had a competent defense this year, and I think the areas that were lacking have very little to do with the fit with Sabonis. Sabonis is the only + usage guy who is above average TS. You can't blame that on a Sabonis fit, because that is a purely offensive struggle and they do not play with two bigs. Fact is, their ball handlers/wings just aren't that good. Fox, Monk, Huerter, Murray are all below average efficiency players. If the Kings were actually playing with two bigs the whole time or struggling on defense you could blame it on that. That was not the case.

We are way too quick to say this guy or that guy is a ceiling limiter when they are not in a good situation. Besides, the Kings aren't even aiming for the highest ceiling. I think they'd be perfectly content to be a consistent playoff team but they don't have the overall talent to do so in the west. I don't think that roster is very good in general. If you took Sabonis off that roster, there are only a handful of players in the entire NBA who you could put on that team and make me think that's a playoff roster. Given that Sabonis is never hurt, he's probably one of the best regular season producers in the league anyways which is what they want.
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Okay there are only 5 guys you can replace Sabonis with and they would be a playoff team? Come on now.

14th best defensive rating this year and the demonstrated last year they could be a top tier offense. That slipped this year… but they e showed it. Even when they did show it they got bounced in round 1. Sabonis wasn’t great in the series. I just think when they decided to make their bed with Sabonis and Fox they limited their ceiling. They are an offensive team with the lowest hanging fruit for taking the next step (breaking through the ceiling) being on defense. What is the easiest way to improve defense? Why is that challenging being built on Sabonis and his stuff with Fox?

It’s a limiting factor for that team. I know it’s fun to say “well actually” but it’s the truth. It doesn’t mean he sucks… doesn’t mean he isn’t their best player even.
 
infection said:
Any time you’re within any kind of quasi-contention and you don’t win it all, your guy or template is a ceiling limiter.When you win, your guy or structure is the new winning model “in today’s NBA.”
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They aren’t quasi contenders… and what if 90% of the times they say it’s a ceiling limitation they are actually right? When the bar is a title there are a lot of real limiting factors. I think Jokic is the only guy I wasn’t sure could break the models and win a title. Within the context of this convo Jokic is much better at the things Sabonis is good at and good at the things Sabonis struggles with.
 
That spin move by Ant was pretty elite. Kept moving towards the hoop without really losing any speed while doing one of the quickest spin moves I ever saw. Missed the shot due to some good rim protection but holy cow that play showed off his talent

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Just looking at McDaniels physically looks a lot like Tay Henny

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fishonjazz said:
Just looking at McDaniels physically looks a lot like Tay Henny

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McDaniels is listed at 6 foot 9 and 195 pounds

Hendricks is listed at 6 foot 9 and 215 pounds

Nice

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Handlogten's Heros said:
Okay there are only 5 guys you can replace Sabonis with and they would be a playoff team? Come on now.

14th best defensive rating this year and the demonstrated last year they could be a top tier offense. That slipped this year… but they e showed it. Even when they did show it they got bounced in round 1. Sabonis wasn’t great in the series. I just think when they decided to make their bed with Sabonis and Fox they limited their ceiling. They are an offensive team with the lowest hanging fruit for taking the next step (breaking through the ceiling) being on defense. What is the easiest way to improve defense? Why is that challenging being built on Sabonis and his stuff with Fox?

It’s a limiting factor for that team. I know it’s fun to say “well actually” but it’s the truth. It doesn’t mean he sucks… doesn’t mean he isn’t their best player even.
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There aren’t that many players who drive us much regular season value as Sabonis, I’ll stand by that. This year he played all 82. I’ll also stand by the notion that their team simply isn’t as talented as those actually in the playoffs. Every other team that is in the playoffs has a way more talented team than the Kings. Disagree? Show me a team that performed better than the Kings not because they have more talent but because their fit is better.

The Kings are already a team that punches above their weight for their talent level. When they can’t go beat out teams that are way more talented, fit is not the issue. Especially when these fit issues you speak of don’t actually happen in practice. It’s not like they’re surrounding Sabonis with a defense heavy team.

I’m not saying this because it’s fun, I’m saying it because it’s proven. Even at the low level of talent the Kings have….all you have to do is look at what they’ve done to see what they are capable of. The same exact players in the same exact situation having worse offensive seasons has nothing to do with fit.
 
KqWIN said:
There aren’t that many players who drive us much regular season value as Sabonis, I’ll stand by that. This year he played all 82. I’ll also stand by the notion that their team simply isn’t as talented as those actually in the playoffs. Every other team that is in the playoffs has a way more talented team than the Kings. Disagree? Show me a team that performed better than the Kings not because they have more talent but because their fit is better.

The Kings are already a team that punches above their weight for their talent level. When they can’t go beat out teams that are way more talented, fit is not the issue. Especially when these fit issues you speak of don’t actually happen in practice. It’s not like they’re surrounding Sabonis with a defense heavy team.

I’m not saying this because it’s fun, I’m saying it because it’s proven. Even at the low level of talent the Kings have….all you have to do is look at what they’ve done to see what they are capable of. The same exact players in the same exact situation having worse offensive seasons has nothing to do with fit.
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Yes they are less talented than most of the west playoff teams but there is a reason they are built how they are and a reason why they punch above their weight. Surround Fox and Sabonis with shooters and it’s tough to stop.

But why aren’t they more talented? Why are we having this convo? It was with regard to Pascal. Why not go get him? Do you think maybe the Kings considered that fitting another non shooter with their core competency was going to be an issue? So the players they are building around present some limitations on what they want to do.

And yes they put at least one better defender out there in Keon Ellis. I think Keegan improved on that end too but not getting good shooting years from their wings and Fox doing his every other year thing took them from first to 14th offensively. They need more defensive minded players that can also spread the floor. Improving on Barnes/Heurter/ on defense will help or Ellis as a shooter… but that’s hard to do and may not have the defensive impact a rim protector would.

I just think when they made that deal that their upside became limited. Paying Fox and Sabonis as your max guys is going to make the rest of the build out challenging if you want to be a conference finals team. They may win a playoff series with this group but that’s the ceiling imo. Breaking through that means they hit a home run somewhere with limited swings.
 
The refs in this suns wolves game have gone back to the 80s and it is straight prison ball.
 
Well this game is over

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Handlogten's Heros said:
Yes they are less talented than most of the west playoff teams but there is a reason they are built how they are and a reason why they punch above their weight. Surround Fox and Sabonis with shooters and it’s tough to stop.

But why aren’t they more talented? Why are we having this convo? It was with regard to Pascal. Why not go get him? Do you think maybe the Kings considered that fitting another non shooter with their core competency was going to be an issue? So the players they are building around present some limitations on what they want to do.

And yes they put at least one better defender out there in Keon Ellis. I think Keegan improved on that end too but not getting good shooting years from their wings and Fox doing his every other year thing took them from first to 14th offensively. They need more defensive minded players that can also spread the floor. Improving on Barnes/Heurter/ on defense will help or Ellis as a shooter… but that’s hard to do and may not have the defensive impact a rim protector would.

I just think when they made that deal that their upside became limited. Paying Fox and Sabonis as your max guys is going to make the rest of the build out challenging if you want to be a conference finals team. They may win a playoff series with this group but that’s the ceiling imo. Breaking through that means they hit a home run somewhere with limited swings.
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Why is any team not more talented? lol. What kind of question is that.

Sabonis stops them from getting another non shooter....ok. Sabonis is providing an immense amount of value as a non shooter. The guys around Fox and Sabonis aren't exactly the cream of the crop, and yet that group was still able to produce an elite offense in large part because Sabonis is so good. Even when the other guys were playing better, it would be hard to look at that team and say...."wow that's a surefire playoff team". And don't act like playing Keon Ellis was some kind of sacrifice they had to make. He's took the minutes of Terrance Davis, who isn't an NBA player, and Davion Mitchell who sucks. Keon has played great and would fit in any team's rotation.

This team has no business being a playoff team in the first place, they get way more out of their talent then other teams. Putting Sabonis with a rim protector who can shoot isn't exactly the secret either. We literally saw that in IND. We can agree to disagree, but as far as reaching their goals/avoid disappointment (which IMO is just to be a consistent playoff team).....Sabonis being hard to fit around is clearly not the issue in my eyes.
 
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