And had we tanked properly we would be in a better position than we are now.
Culture of winning or tank?
- Thread starter str8line
- Start date
If we hadn't tanked at all we might have a top 4 pick.
I'd rather not nuke the team for a shot at a slightly better pick in a comically weak draft.
You really got to stop responding to OL like he is someone with a functioning brain.
AlaskanAssassin
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I wish I knew what our plan was to get out of mediocrity.
LogGrad98
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It's more about tactical moves to me. Tactically there are times to tank and times to go all in. It isn't about only being a tanking culture or only being a winning culture. It's about playing the rules and gaps in the rules to our best advantage over time. Sometimes that means taking a tanking track to get the assets to go all in on winning. And that's the long-term strategy.
Bawse Dawg
Well-Known Member
"Culture" is not a real thing. Or at least it's not something that permeates the fiber of an organization independent of who's there. People make the culture of a place. You get people/players with winning mentality AND WINNING SKILL/ATTRIBUTES... and winning culture is not hard to build. What's hard to get is the people with the skills and attributes who can compete to win it all. This is the bottleneck, not the "culture". I've been saying this for ages and not much has changed in my mind - the NBA is incredibly top heavy league. With some very minor exceptions, you need MVP level talent if you want to win it all. Ask yourself what's the best way for a team like the Jazz, with the limitation that we have as small market... as a predominantly white state... what is the best way to get an MVP level talent on the roster(and keep him for long enough to be able to actually build a team around him)?
To me the answer is obviously to tank and get lucky.
To me the answer is obviously to tank and get lucky.
Both this year and last year were the half-assed versions of a tank. The version where your FO miscalculates your own ability and talent and attempts to compete, but half way through the season realizes they've screwed up so now it's time to salvage what you can and you tank. Only by doing it more than half-way through the season you actually abandon the benefits of both paths - high chance for a good pick and playoff experience. It's the stupidest thing your organization can do and we've done it 2 times already. Lets see if we can make it a triple crown!
mdalby
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Bawse Dawg
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And I'm sitting here thinking that having Ivey and Ausar would be kind of exciting.
HermanG
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This is what happens when people think too highly of themselves. They come up with their own definitions of well established concepts.
Culture is a thing, and has been extensively studied by people 10x smarter than you.
Winning skills/attributes on the other hand are a figment of your own imagination. While some skills are more important than others and length is important for sure, but champions have been built in various different ways and there is no one formula.
For the last 30 years there is one team that has won the NBA championship without an MVP level talent. ONE!
2023: Denver Nuggets - Jokic
2022: Golden State Warriors - Curry (this is 2 years after they tanked for the no. 2 pick BTW, winning culture and all...)
2021: Milwaukee Bucks- Giannis (after having 1 winning season in the 10 prior to drafting Giannis)
2020: Los Angeles Lakers - Lebron (this is after a decade of constant losing and being a horrible team... all they needed was to get the talent)
2019: Toronto Raptors - Kawhi
2018: Golden State Warriors - Curry, Durant
2017: Golden State Warriors - Curry, Durant
2016: Cleveland Cavaliers - LeBron (yeah... that winning culture of Clevelend)
2015: Golden State Warriors - Curry (2 years after they tanked to keep their pick)
2014: San Antonio Spurs - Kawhi, Duncan (tanked for Duncan)
2013: Miami Heat - Lebron, Wade
2012: Miami Heat - Lebron, Wade
2011: Dallas Mavericks - Dirk
2010: Los Angeles Lakers - Kobe
2009: Los Angeles Lakers - Kobe
2008: Boston Celtics - Garnett (This is the year after they tanked for Durant, but didn't get him)
2007: San Antonio Spurs - Duncan (Tanked for Duncan)
2006: Miami Heat - Wade
2005: San Antonio Spurs - Duncan (Tanked for Duncan)
2004: Detroit Pistons !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! THIS IS THE ONE!!! exception...
2003: San Antonio Spurs - Duncan, Robinson (Tanked for Duncan)
2002: Los Angeles Lakers - Kobe, Shaq
2001: Los Angeles Lakers - Kobe, Shaq
2000: Los Angeles Lakers - Kobe, Shaq
1999: San Antonio Spurs - Duncan, Robinson (tanked for Duncan)
1998: Chicago Bulls - MJ - pushed off
1997: Chicago Bulls - MJ
1996: Chicago Bulls - MJ
1995: Houston Rockets - Hakeem
1994: Houston Rockets - Hakeem
1993: Chicago Bulls - MJ
1992: Chicago Bulls - MJ
1991: Chicago Bulls - MJ
1990: Detroit Pistons - !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is the second exception
1989: Detroit Pistons - !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Same team - third exception
1988: Los Angeles Lakers - Kareem, Magic
1987: Los Angeles Lakers - Kareem, Magic
1986: Boston Celtics - Bird, Walton
1985: Los Angeles Lakers - Kareem, Magic, McAdoo
1984: Boston Celtics - Bird
1983: Philadelphia 76ers - Moses Malone, Julius Erving
1982: Los Angeles Lakers - Kareem, Magic
1981: Boston Celtics - Bird,
1980: Los Angeles Lakers - Kareem, Haywood
So Since 1980... The only team that has won an NBA championship without an MVP level talent is Detroit Pistons and they have done it 3 times. 3 out 44 teams. Yes, there are different ways to build a contender, but what is almost universally true is - you need to get a player with the talent, skill and attributes to be the best player in the league. Everything else is pipe dreams and delusions. Unless you are the Detroit Pistons I guess...
If you want to argue that you are better off trying to find that guy by not losing, have at it. We can have that argument too. But lets not lie to ourselves that we are going anywhere without a guy or two(because about a 3d of those teams have had 2 MVP level talents on their roster), who can be THE GUY in any given series...
HermanG
Well-Known Member
I have reiterated that same history multiple times so trust me, I know it. Would have saved you some time to read my reply properly.
I never argued you dont need a MVP caliber player. However the guys you listed serve as a proof that there is not one type of player/skill/attribute that your top guy must have.
Curry, Duncan, Shaq and MJ have little in common between each other in terms of skillsets. Three of them are great defenders though. Even mentally, the only thing they all share is "the killer instinct" or whatever you wanna call it.
Actually, you listed 3 times out of 30. And you can add to it 2 more: Garnett did not play on the MVP level for Boston, and neither did Kawhi and Duncan in 2014. So, 5 times out of 30 years: it's rare, but it happens.
And who said they have to be any particular type of player?
HermanG
Well-Known Member
Also do not for a second think Spurs didnt have winning culture deeply integrated into their organisation when they tanked for Duncan. One year of bad play due to poor injury luck is easy to brush aside when their core had won 55-62 games in each of the previous 3 seasons.
HermanG
Well-Known Member
You said winning skills/attributes... but maybe I took that the wrong way?
I'm not putting a huge emphasis in this winning and losing culture stuff. In the end it just comes down to talent. Did the wolves have a losing cultures for years or were they bad because they sucked at talent evaluation and wasted high draft picks non stop? They finally hit on Edwards and McDaniels in the same draft and it tranformed their future. The same goes for the kings. Terrible talent evaluation where they constantly missed. Then they finally hit on some key guys like Fox and Haliburton and it opens a path to being competitive.
Yeah... I just meant really high level of skill and/or attributes... I meant MVP level talent in general. Regardless of the shape and size it comes in..