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From here on out are you cheering for us to win or lose?

From here on out are you cheering for us to win or lose?

  • Win

  • Lose

  • Can’t decide

Results are only viewable after voting.
KqWIN said:
I am skeptical that the league concern matches what is happening in podcast/twitter land, but who knows for sure. I don't doubt that OKC is complaining, they are min maxers. But the idea of the league being so focused on the Jazz when they are going to exceed their over/under by 10 wins feels far fetched for a multitude of reasons.
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I mostly agree and if you look at my posts from last year I argued with a lot of people along the same lines. I think the league mostly cares about maximizing profit, but I do think the league cares about their reputation and as the noise gets louder I can see them taking more drastic measures than they did last year.
 
SoberasHotRod said:
I mostly agree and if you look at my posts from last year I argued with a lot of people along the same lines. I think the league mostly cares about maximizing profit, but I do think the league cares about their reputation and as the noise gets louder I can see them taking more drastic measures than they did last year.
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I'm biased, of course, but placating Presti after doing his own egregious tanking would also be a bad look.
 
zags422 said:
When you have PF like Jayden Quaintance or even yaxel landenburger whatever his name sitting in the 8-12 range you gotta acknowledge the strength of this particular draft class.
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No, you don't have to acknowledge that. There isn't a Wemby in this draft class. This draft class is not distinguishable from any other year. In his draft year still around the end of the year Isaiah Collier was a projected top3-pick. And surely showed the strength of that class back then as well.

KqWIN said:
You do have to come up with something. Come up with logic as to why the decision to tank is the same as it was last summer.
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The Jazz are now tanking their 4th straight season. The team, the owner, the FO, even the fans to a degree have shown what they want and what the strategy is. Anyone saying "now it changes!" has to provide evidence, not me.

KqWIN said:
- The pick protections
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Yeah, sure. If you believe the #7 pick is more valuable than trying to build towards something already this season. I don't.

KqWIN said:
- It’s harder to tank because young players keep getting better
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Then the Jazz get rid of those players, as they have proven many times already if someone threatens the tanking.

KqWIN said:
- There is a better opportunity to improve team
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Why? How? Why would it better then than now? The Jazz have bled assets and continue to do so, salary flexibility is going in the wrong direction. I think the opportunities are getting fewer and worse the longer this goes on.

KqWIN said:
On top of that, it’s just obvious that patience is running out. That isn’t necessarily a good reason to stop the tank, but it’s something that’s true unless you live under a rock.
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Sure. If the owner, FO, you, whoever, admits that tanking didn't work out and I'm out, then I'm absolutely fine with that. Cut your losses etc. Took you long enough to find out, but hopefully that will carry with you for some time.

KqWIN said:
Key and Lauri don’t need to “learn to win”, they will win more when they improve and/or their teammates improve.
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Nope.
 
Tanktastic said:
No, you don't have to acknowledge that. There isn't a Wemby in this draft class. This draft class is not distinguishable from any other year. In his draft year still around the end of the year Isaiah Collier was a projected top3-pick. And surely showed the strength of that class back then as well.


The Jazz are now tanking their 4th straight season. The team, the owner, the FO, even the fans to a degree have shown what they want and what the strategy is. Anyone saying "now it changes!" has to provide evidence, not me.


Yeah, sure. If you believe the #7 pick is more valuable than trying to build towards something already this season. I don't.


Then the Jazz get rid of those players, as they have proven many times already if someone threatens the tanking.


Why? How? Why would it better then than now? The Jazz have bled assets and continue to do so, salary flexibility is going in the wrong direction. I think the opportunities are getting fewer and worse the longer this goes on.


Sure. If the owner, FO, you, whoever, admits that tanking didn't work out and I'm out, then I'm absolutely fine with that. Cut your losses etc. Took you long enough to find out, but hopefully that will carry with you for some time.


Nope.
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I have told you why it’s a different to tank next year than this year. It’s outlined in the most simple way possible. This includes your own acknowledgment that Key affects the decision to tank. Key is not who we thought he is. That is enough “evidence” to make the decision to tank or not change. Trading Keyonte or Lauri to tank is not remotely similar to trading Sexton and Collins.

Now you make an argument that says the decision to tank is no different than it was before. I’ll wait.

If you don’t want to actually discuss the topic and instead want to whine and complain while providing no alternatives, I’m just done with the conversation. I like to talk basketball, not provide comfort for your feelings.
 
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KqWIN said:
I have told you why it’s a different to tank next year than this year. It’s outlined in the most simple way possible. This includes your own acknowledgment that Key affects the decision to tank. Key is not who we thought he is. That is enough “evidence” to make the decision to tank or not change.
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So Keyonte is different, but... is not different? Isn't Keyonte "not who we thought" right now? Today?

If Keyonte is "that player" now and we tank this season and he's that player in the summer and we don't... well I still to see any sort of logic that stands up to any test.

My view has been clear from the start. Everyone that wanted to tank to be that contender team etc., needs to want to tank next season as well. Because you can't quit tanking until you get lucky. Unless it was just some "whatever, let's buy a lottery ticket or two", not any sort of credible and calculated strategy.

I never want any of my favorite teams to tank. It's abhorrent.

And right now I want the Jazz to move towards winning. Not by suddenly going all out and getting some... f'ing Trae Young. But this is the core that those three years of **** netted. Now is the time to finally at least get on the first step of the ladder and start climbing. Get rid of some dudes that the FO doesn't see a future for and replace them with some other, better dudes. And stop wasting everyone's time.
 
Tanktastic said:
So Keyonte is different, but... is not different? Isn't Keyonte "not who we thought" right now? Today?

If Keyonte is "that player" now and we tank this season and he's that player in the summer and we don't... well I still to see any sort of logic that stands up to any test.

My view has been clear from the start. Everyone that wanted to tank to be that contender team etc., needs to want to tank next season as well. Because you can't quit tanking until you get lucky. Unless it was just some "whatever, let's buy a lottery ticket or two", not any sort of credible and calculated strategy.

I never want any of my favorite teams to tank. It's abhorrent.

And right now I want the Jazz to move towards winning. Not by suddenly going all out and getting some... f'ing Trae Young. But this is the core that those three years of **** netted. Now is the time to finally at least get on the first step of the ladder and start climbing. Get rid of some dudes that the FO doesn't see a future for and replace them with some other, better dudes. And stop wasting everyone's time.
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The decision to tank this season was made in the summer. We did not know that Key was good this summer. We now know how good he is now so the decision is different next summer. Do you follow? I can’t dumb it down any further.

If you can't see the difference in pivoting mid season versus the off season, I seriously have no idea where to start.

I must have missed the memo that said we must follow whatever you say. I try to decide whether or not I want to tank based on what I think is the best path forward. In my mind, tanking ends when it is no longer the most viable option. Tanking can be the best option if you’ve already gotten lucky, but it can also be the worse option if you haven’t gotten lucky. Regardless of luck, you have to keep reevaluating the best path forward for the franchise. But I guess we can’t move forward with the best option because you said so. I hope the Ainge’s are listening to you because you obviously decide the rules.

You seem to be seeking some catharsis about the FO. I can’t provide that to you.
 
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AK47 said:
It's just tough. These guys are fun to watch when they are on but 5 years of tanking and we want to to start winning now? We tanked all of these years to be a potential play in team?
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That is the fault of blind-faith tankers and rose goggles. In fact, the great majority of tanking stretches do not produce any foundational superstars: they end up exactly as you described, in building a good but not an obviously great team. Six out of the current top-10 NBA players were not drafted through blatant tanking: Jokic, Giannis, SGA, Brunson, Mitchell, Haliburton or Kawhi.

If the Jazz do not draft any additional stars and will go forward with the core of Keyonte, Lauri, Walker and Ace that would be a very respectable and successful rebuild.
 
The main problem we’re facing is fans are cheering too much on home games which makes the players play harder and hence we’re winning too many games we should be losing.

We’re 8-11 at home and 4-11 away.

Don’t these home fans know about the pick protection?

I’m all for fans attending games, but for god’s sake stop cheering so damn hard.
 
FalseFlagg K said:
just trying to enjoy good play I am really looking forward to next season when there won't be a confused feeling as to whether you're cheering for a win or loss though, 3 more months of this weird **** then it's done. Really gonna just enjoy seeing who improves, hope for a good result come May and then next season absolutely back to hoping for a win every game again.

Quite glad they're looking very much like tanking out the rest of this season though
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And we get the best pick of Minny/Cavs, so it should fun to root against them
 
cctrackstar said:
frankly, i've been missing games. i just don't care enough. if the team has to cheat to win because of the way the league is, i am not a fan of the league.
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They don't have to do it. They're choosing to do it.

They could be going all in with the current team, trading for reinforcements and trying to win. We literally have two elite scorers on this roster.

But trying to be competitive would mean that the Ainges would be making themselves accountable for their basketball decisions in the short term. And they don't like that idea.

It's better to hold on to your cushy FO job and say "We'll be competitive in about five years, trust us bro!"
 
KqWIN said:
The decision to tank this season was made in the summer. We did not know that Key was good this summer. We now know how good he is now so the decision is different next summer. Do you follow? I can’t dumb it down any further.

If you can't see the difference in pivoting mid season versus the off season, I seriously have no idea where to start.
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The nepo promised everyone there would be no "contusions". And in fact for example Lauri, Keyonte and Nurk played pretty much everyone of the first 20 games. And now the "contusions" are in full blow. The "contusions" started now that Keyonte pulled off a 28/5/7 December, Lauri showed his start wasn't a flash in the pan and Nurk proved his national team coach wrong and he can actually still run. It is a decision made now, not in the summer.

1. The nepo lied. To you, to me, to everyone.
2. The Jazz pivoted mid-season into "contusions".

KqWIN said:
I must have missed the memo that said we must follow whatever you say. I try to decide whether or not I want to tank based on what I think is the best path forward. In my mind, tanking ends when it is no longer the most viable option. Tanking can be the best option if you’ve already gotten lucky, but it can also be the worse option if you haven’t gotten lucky. Regardless of luck, you have to keep reevaluating the best path forward for the franchise. But I guess we can’t move forward with the best option because you said so. I hope the Ainge’s are listening to you because you obviously decide the rules.
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The tanking has clearly moved from faith into religion that can't be offended.

I'm saying what I abhor (and most sports fans do) and don't want to see a second more. Meanwhile, you're saying something is "the best option". Without a shred of evidence or anything to back it up. Which is natural for all religions.

Fine, believe in tanking. Others don't. Demanding that no-one can even have a differing option... religion, again.
 
Tanktastic said:
The nepo promised everyone there would be no "contusions". And in fact for example Lauri, Keyonte and Nurk played pretty much everyone of the first 20 games. And now the "contusions" are in full blow. The "contusions" started now that Keyonte pulled off a 28/5/7 December, Lauri showed his start wasn't a flash in the pan and Nurk proved his national team coach wrong and he can actually still run. It is a decision made now, not in the summer.

1. The nepo lied. To you, to me, to everyone.
2. The Jazz pivoted mid-season into "contusions".


The tanking has clearly moved from faith into religion that can't be offended.

I'm saying what I abhor (and most sports fans do) and don't want to see a second more. Meanwhile, you're saying something is "the best option". Without a shred of evidence or anything to back it up. Which is natural for all religions.

Fine, believe in tanking. Others don't. Demanding that no-one can even have a differing option... religion, again.
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Look, you seem to be seeking some emotional validation to satisfy your frustration. I can’t help you.

I’m not here to support the Nepo. I don’t think he’s good. I don’t like the FO. You want to complain and there’s a lot to complain about, but I’m trying to have a conversation about basketball while you’re just trying to vent.

What the Nepo said is completely irrelevant to my process. I believe that a top 8 pick is not worthless. I believe that increased odds is not worthless. I think Keyonte’s breakout season changes the dynamic of these choices. I think the off season presents more opportunity to change the roster than January does. I think Walker Kessler changes the dynamic of if you can tank or not. I believe that trying to compete starting 0-0 is different than 12-22. Most of all, I think tanking should end when it is no longer the best option and not because you said so. This is not religion, this is logic. Ignoring this logic doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist!

BTW. I never even said that tanking was the best option, just that the choice is different. Unlike you, I actually weigh the pros and cons. I don’t have a default answer for if tanking is bad or not.

What I do find worthless is “learning to win” or whatever else you think is so important to do now. It matters as much as it did for DET, CLE, ORL, OKC, SAS, or HOU. It doesn’t matter that these teams ranked. It mattered that they got good players. You keep saying this is so important without a shred of evidence.

I use logic, you use your emotions and distaste for tanking. You are actually the one defending your right to not have an argument and claim I’m the religious one without a shred of evidence. Comical. If you don’t like tanking because it’s icky, that’s fine. But if you’re going to pretend you are the side of reason at least have an argument.
 
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LogGrad98 said:
Not a huge stretch to think they night want to control what markets which star prospects play in as well to maximize revenue.
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Right. Luka was always going to be drafted by Atlanta, Zion by NO, Morant and JJJ by Memphis, LaMelo by Charlotte, Ant by Minnesota, Banchero by Orlando, Wemby by SA, Cade by Detroit, Brown and Tatum with the third overall pick by Boston.

You want me to go on?

The only explanation is that the League hates Utah.
 
Tremendous Upside said:
Right. Luka was always going to be drafted by Atlanta, Zion by NO, Morant and JJJ by Memphis, LaMelo by Charlotte, Ant by Minnesota, Banchero by Orlando, Wemby by SA, Cade by Detroit, Brown and Tatum with the third overall pick by Boston.

You want me to go on?

The only explanation is that the League hates Utah.
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Sure. Instead of realizing that influencing is far different than picking the destination of every single player ever, which was never said or even implied, go ahead and spew your standard ****. It's on brand after all.
 
Look. You can play - in this context - rather complex lottery for a very long time, before it comes anomaly.
I'd guess that NBA just wants to keep all teams viable. Rigging anything would be non-advisable.
 
This is the last year that we are even capable of tanking so we better take advantage of it. The building blocks have already started to take shape with Key and Lauri becoming one of the most dominant 1-2 punches the nba offensively. Thank God Kessler went down or we would have been in real trouble because he is right there with those 2 as a foundation piece as a defensive anchor. Next year I'm very confident that we will see a huge jump from Ace on both sides of the ball. He is flashing plenty of signs as a young 19yr old and I expect Key to take him under his wing when it comes to training this offseason. Those 4 guys alone will make us very competitive. If we somehow luck into AJ, Peterson or Wilson then damn we have the making of something special. If it's Boozer, Flemings, Brown, Carr, Acuff, Thomas or Philon then the ceiling is lower but I still love it. Plenty of other guys that are worthy of conversation in 5-8 range as well.

This isn't even taking into account the development of Flip, Collier, Hendricks, Clayton, Sensabaugh and Williams. We need at least 2 of them to develope into solid role players for us. The back half of this season can't come soon enough so that we can see these guys get more minutes and get a better idea of who looks like they could be a keeper.
 
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