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CHAD FORD ON BOARD

FO saying they traded the pick around 22-23 and didn’t think Butler would be there at 30 and were regretting that when he was there at 30. Color me unconvinced.
 
infection said:
FO saying they traded the pick around 22-23 and didn’t think Butler would be there at 30 and were regretting that when he was there at 30. Color me unconvinced.
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That would be a dumb move - most trades are always conditional or otherwise we might be selling low.
 
Avery said:
That would be a dumb move - most trades are always conditional or otherwise we might be selling low.
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Yeah, I don’t buy it. I’ve never heard of it being done that way.
 
infection said:
What do you mean?
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Chad Ford was caught editing his previous years' draft boards and mock drafts while he was with the ESPN to better reflect how the players turned out rather than what he thought at the time he was posting them. I can't be 100% sure about that but it's probably why he's been out of mainstream media for the last 5-6 years. Seems like he's trying to make a come back through Locke's podcast network. I've been seeing him more and more on various more prominent podcasts as a guest during this years' draft season.
 
infection said:
I believe they traded the pick with Butler on board, and there are a handful of PR reasons to spin it that you hadn’t traded it knowing he was on board.
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The question is why Chad Ford is doing their bidding... but I can also crack that pretty quick.
 
stitches said:
Chad Ford was caught editing his previous years' draft boards and mock drafts while he was with the ESPN to better reflect how the players turned out rather than what he thought at the time he was posting them. I can't be 100% sure about that but it's probably why he's been out of mainstream media for the last 5-6 years. Seems like he's trying to make a come back through Locke's podcast network. I've been seeing him more and more on various more prominent podcasts as a guest during this years' draft season.
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I think it's more he just got replaced. He use to be the top guy before DraftExpress changed the game. I dont think Ford was willing to work that hard and he just retired in Hawaii. Now he's coming back, but I think he mostly just home scouts now. He's not flying everywhere watching games and talking to people unless he's friends with them.
 
So let me get this straight:

1st story -- Tony Jones (who I hear here is a shill for the Jazz) comes out and says the Jazz traded the pick at 30 with Butler still on the board, with some "intel" that he'd likely still be around at #40 and thus picked up a few more assets. The more cynical view was the Jazz simply got lucky that Butler was still around (there was no "intel") and that they were presumably deadset on getting off #30 for some reason (pre-draft speculation centered on getting of of Favors's contract; but that turned out not to be the return, rather replenishing the 2nd round cupboard seems to have been the reason).

2nd story -- Chad Ford says the Jazz indeed wanted Butler but were worried that he wouldn't be around at #30, so they traded while the draft was at 22 or 23 to pick up those 2nd-round assets instead. Ford says they were heartbroken when he was there at 30, and then elated when he was there at 40. Now the cynics want to insist that Ford's story is BS because: (I'm not exactly sure what follows the "because" here -- it appears to be something about the Jazz trying to spin something to make it seem like they didn't pass on Butler at 30; is that correct?)

To me the second story sounds far worse for the Jazz, but the word around here seems to be that now Ford is shilling for the Jazz's FO, too. Do I have this right?

Where is the story going to end up? How much ineptitude are we going to assign to the Jazz's FO by the time we finish decoding everything? What do we want to make sure to blame the FO for, and what do we want to make sure they don't get credit for?
 
idiot said:
So let me get this straight:

1st story -- Tony Jones (who I hear here is a shill for the Jazz) comes out and says the Jazz traded the pick at 30 with Butler still on the board, with some "intel" that he'd likely still be around at #40 and thus picked up a few more assets. The more cynical view was the Jazz simply got lucky that Butler was still around (there was no "intel") and that they were presumably deadset on getting off #30 for some reason (pre-draft speculation centered on getting of of Favors's contract; but that turned out not to be the return, rather replenishing the 2nd round cupboard seems to have been the reason).

2nd story -- Chad Ford says the Jazz indeed wanted Butler but were worried that he wouldn't be around at #30, so they traded while the draft was at 22 or 23 to pick up those 2nd-round assets instead. Ford says they were heartbroken when he was there at 30, and then elated when he was there at 40. Now the cynics want to insist that Ford's story is BS because: (I'm not exactly sure what follows the "because" here -- it appears to be something about the Jazz trying to spin something to make it seem like they didn't pass on Butler at 30; is that correct?)

To me the second story sounds far worse for the Jazz, but the word around here seems to be that now Ford is shilling for the Jazz's FO, too. Do I have this right?

Where is the story going to end up? How much ineptitude are we going to assign to the Jazz's FO by the time we finish decoding everything? What do we want to make sure to blame the FO for, and what do we want to make sure they don't get credit for?
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I think the TJ story is what’s true. We didn’t calculate what the guy would think of us passing on him, so we’re spinning. And before we say Udoka, the difference here is that Butler was anticipated to go higher and trading away means you don’t value him enough to keep the pick. Nobody has intel enough to say with anything more than a magic 8 ball guess as to whether a guy would survive 10 more picks. Udoka was never slated to go high, so it wouldn’t be as huge of a slight to trade back for him (we did, in a way).

Also, if one thinks there was intel, I’d be interested in hearing how the Jazz have intel on 10 teams in real-time about an unanticipated player slipping. That’s some magic ****ing intel and if any franchise had that kind of reliable intel, they’d be running the table on the league in many more ways than the draft.
 
infection said:
I think the TJ story is what’s true. We didn’t calculate what the guy would think of us passing on him, so we’re spinning. And before we say Udoka, the difference here is that Butler was anticipated to go higher and trading away means you don’t value him enough to keep the pick. Nobody has intel enough to say with anything more than a magic 8 ball guess as to whether a guy would survive 10 more picks. Udoka was never slated to go high, so it wouldn’t be as huge of a slight to trade back for him (we did, in a way).

Also, if one thinks there was intel, I’d be interested in hearing how the Jazz have intel on 10 teams in real-time about an unanticipated player slipping.
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So this is to say that it's primarily about assuaging Butler, trying to make him think we actually wanted him at 30? And that story #2 actually is more favorable to the Jazz than story #1 (though it was the opposite for me)?
 
infection said:
I think the TJ story is what’s true. We didn’t calculate what the guy would think of us passing on him, so we’re spinning. And before we say Udoka, the difference here is that Butler was anticipated to go higher and trading away means you don’t value him enough to keep the pick. Nobody has intel enough to say with anything more than a magic 8 ball guess as to whether a guy would survive 10 more picks. Udoka was never slated to go high, so it wouldn’t be as huge of a slight to trade back for him (we did, in a way).

Also, if one thinks there was intel, I’d be interested in hearing how the Jazz have intel on 10 teams in real-time about an unanticipated player slipping. That’s some magic ****ing intel and if any franchise had that kind of reliable intel, they’d be running the table on the league in many more ways than the draft.
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PS -- that could make some sense to me, but I'm still unsure on the long-term play here. We were still the team that wanted him first. I'm not entirely sure what the value of pumping him up as a lottery talent before he's even stepped on the floor is (though I get that teams want to make fans feel good about their picks).
 
idiot said:
So this is to say that it's primarily about assuaging Butler, trying to make him think we actually wanted him at 30? And that story #2 actually is more favorable to the Jazz than story #1 (though it was the opposite for me)?
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I think in the moment #1 looks good and you immediately run with it because it appeals to looking smart and definitely coming out on top. We can claim there was intel there but it was a risky move. Of course you won’t come out and say “yeah, there were a couple guys we wanted and thought maybe we’d have one if we moved back” rather than saying “this was our guy all along.” If he was your guy all along, you don’t trust the “intel.” If you did, it’s stupid. But then when you drafted your guy and he’s upset about being burned by so many teams (among them you), then you may start seeing it from another angle and play the facts of how it went down a little different. My belief is that there may have been a couple other reasons we wanted to move back, and we try to spin favorable narratives on why that was done.

But if we’re thinking this is overly cynical, why has the FO pumped out two completely different narratives? That’s not on us — it’s on them. And I’m not necessarily even being very critical about it. Nothing is super black and white. But when you’re pushing these different narratives out into the public sphere, don’t be surprised when eyebrows raise on completely conflicting stories.

And yes, trading at 22 makes them look worse, but that’s only to us that follow this stuff. Most people would just assume that’s how it’s done. If you can get a win by saying that “hey, we would have totally kept the pick if we knew Butler would be there,” it allows you to correct for perhaps some of the unanticipated consequences of the first narrative all at the expense of some online people who know that they didn’t trade a pick 7-8 picks before.
 
infection said:
I think in the moment #1 looks good and you immediately run with it because it appeals to looking smart and definitely coming out on top. We can claim there was intel there but it was a risky move. Of course you won’t come out and say “yeah, there were a couple guys we wanted and thought maybe we’d have one if we moved back” rather than saying “this was our guy all along.” If he was your guy all along, you don’t trust the “intel.” If you did, it’s stupid. But then when you drafted your guy and he’s upset about being burned by so many teams (among them you), then you may start seeing it from another angle and play the facts of how it went down a little different. My belief is that there may have been a couple other reasons we wanted to move back, and we try to spin favorable narratives on why that was done.

But if we’re thinking this is overly cynical, why has the FO pumped out two completely different narratives? That’s not on us — it’s on them. And I’m not necessarily even being very critical about it. Nothing is super black and white. But when you’re pushing these different narratives out into the public sphere, don’t be surprised when eyebrows raise on completely conflicting stories.

And yes, trading at 22 makes them look worse, but that’s only to us that follow this stuff. Most people would just assume that’s how it’s done. If you can get a win by saying that “hey, we would have totally kept the pick if we knew Butler would be there,” it allows you to correct for perhaps some of the unanticipated consequences of the first narrative all at the expense of some online people who know that they didn’t trade a pick 7-8 picks before.
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OK -- I'm not in PR so I'm probably not good at fully fathoming some of this stuff.

I just don't see why there's all that much that needs to be spun in the first place. Whether you're drafted 30 or 40 you better be prepared to give it your all if you want to stay in the league. I'm not sure why the Jazz feel like they need to soothe feelings publicly like this.
 
If the Jazz were forced to commit to the trade with Memphis at around pick 22 or 23, I could see the Jazz doing this, thinking that a guard they like would still be available, whether that was Ayo, McBride or Ayayi.
 
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