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Liberals, Conservatives and the notion of Karma

moevillini

the Chief Old D'oh
Contributor
the Wall St. Journal had a VERY interesting article over the weekend titled "What the Tea Partiers Really Want" - it's not too often that I read something that seems like a new idea to me, a new way of looking at or thinking about something, but this article turned on a light bulb for me

https://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703673604575550243700895762.html

What do the tea partiers really want? The title of a recent book by two of the movement's leaders offers an answer: "Give Us Liberty: A Tea Party Manifesto." The authors, Dick Armey and Matt Kibbe, write that "We just want to be free. Free to lead our lives as we please, so long as we do not infringe on the same freedom of others."

This claim should cause liberals to do a double-take. Isn't it straight out of John Stuart Mill, the patron saint of liberalism? Last year my colleagues and I placed a nearly identical statement on our research site, YourMorals.org: "Everyone should be free to do as they choose, so long as they don't infringe upon the equal freedom of others." Responses from 3,600 Americans showed that self-described libertarians agreed with the statement most strongly, but liberals were right behind them. Social conservatives, who, according to national polls, make up the bulk of the tea party, were more tepid in their endorsement.

Because a generalized love of liberty doesn't distinguish tea partiers from other Americans, liberals have been free to speculate on the "real" motives behind the movement.... Such explanations allow liberals to disregard the moral claims of tea partiers. But the passion of the tea-party movement is, in fact, a moral passion. It can be summarized in one word: not liberty, but karma.

The notion of karma comes with lots of new-age baggage, but it is an old and very conservative idea. It is the Sanskrit word for "deed" or "action," and the law of karma says that for every action, there is an equal and morally commensurate reaction. Kindness, honesty and hard work will (eventually) bring good fortune; cruelty, deceit and laziness will (eventually) bring suffering. No divine intervention is required; it's just a law of the universe, like gravity.

Karma is not an exclusively Hindu idea. It combines the universal human desire that moral accounts should be balanced with a belief that, somehow or other, they will be balanced....

...Liberals in the 1960s and 1970s seemed intent on protecting people from the punitive side of karma. Premarital sex was separated from its consequences (by birth control, abortion and more permissive norms); bearing children out of wedlock was made affordable (by passing costs on to taxpayers); even violent crime was partially shielded from punishment (by liberal reforms that aimed to protect defendants and limit the powers of the police).

Now jump ahead to today's ongoing financial and economic crisis. Again, those guilty of corruption and irresponsibility have escaped the consequences of their wrongdoing, rescued first by President Bush and then by President Obama. Bailouts and bonuses sent unimaginable sums of the taxpayers' money to the very people who brought calamity upon the rest of us. Where is punishment for the wicked?

As the tea partiers see it, the positive side of karma has been weakened, too. The Protestant work ethic (karma's Christian cousin) holds that hard work is a duty and will bring commensurate rewards. Yet here, too, liberals have long been uncomfortable with karma...

...One of the biggest disagreements between the political left and right is their conflicting notions of fairness. Across many surveys and experiments, we find that liberals think about fairness in terms of equality, whereas conservatives think of it in terms of karma...

Anyhow, just thought I'd share. The entire article is quite interesting - - hope the link works and it's not restricted content, but I'm not sure.
 
I had a few good chuckles at the article. Karma is a wonderful device when applied selectively and without regard to reality.
 
along these lines brad hicks (who is often insightful, even if he is a disturbed individual) has too really good articles explaining conservatives to liberals and vice versa

https://bradhicks.livejournal.com/53848.html
ukla_tko42 just mentioned in her journal, the other day, that she couldn't imagine how anybody could support President Bush. Well, you know by now that I don't, either. I do, however, understand how some people can make that mistake. Still, her confusion is perfectly natural. For one thing, people tend to surround themselves with like-minded people. For another, most people naturally avoid confrontation. So even though I strongly suspect she probably has one or two friends reading her journal who were planning on voting for Bush in November, none of them were willing to come forward and explain why when she asked them to.

Tonight, I don't want to talk about specific candidates or specific policy positions, though. You see, there is a seldom-articulated coherent position that underlies the entire modern conservative coalition in America. It's such an obvious principle, to them, that most conservatives don't even think about it. Most of them couldn't explain it, consciously. Their leaders, who could explain it, mostly don't. To about half of them, it's so obvious it's not worth talking about. The others don't want to argue about it. Since the principle is so obvious, they assume that you know it, understand it, and fully agree with it. That's why, when you take stands that are at odds with that principle, they're unwilling to assume you're doing so sincerely and out of the goodness of your heart. You have to be venal, corrupt, or dishonest to take a stand contrary to that principle, because obviously you know better and are only saying what you're saying for some evil purpose.

So let me start with the bare minimum of history, just by way of an example, and then explain what that principle is. Because once you know what it is, you'll find much of the debate, and much of the campaign advertising, and much of the news coverage this election year a lot more comprehensible. Of course, you may also have a smidgen more self-doubt, because you may be driven further into that crippling liberal/moderate paralyzing affliction: being pathologically able to see both sides. (People who only see one side are a lot easier to get fired up, unfortunately.)

The historical precedent for this will come as news to most of you, because it really is forbidden history. Since so much of this is tied up in the religious history of the United States, and since school systems are terrified of parental lawsuits, you never had most of this in school.

In the 1620s, Puritans (the antecedents of modern fundamentalists) had successfully conquered England, overthrowing the monarchy and ruling directly through Parliament - but they weren't happy. There were two flies in their ointment. For one thing, their revolution hadn't been nearly as thorough as they'd hoped. They were hoping for a top-to-bottom pietistic overhaul of English society; they didn't get it. And what's more, while they may not have seen the Restoration coming, they could tell that public opinion was turning against their experiment, and that society was already going back the wrong way. So some of them devised a new experiment. Money was raised to buy a colonial charter, and passage by ship, for tens of thousands of English Puritans. By the time that migration was done, around 1640, these Puritan colonists made up nearly the entire European-descended population of the New World.

What they hoped to demonstrate was that you didn't need the Church to run the State, or vice versa, as long as they both agreed. Their hope was to create a civilization where everybody was a Puritan; every citizen, every voter, every worker, every boss, every politician, every lawyer, every policeman, every judge, every teacher, every minister. Puritan ministers wouldn't have to control the government; the government would naturally agree with them. Puritan governors wouldn't have to appoint and control teachers and ministers; being fellow Puritans, they would naturally agree with the government. By the time the last of them were getting off the boat in 1640, they could already tell that this wasn't going to work. In fact, that's what the Antinomian Crisis of 1640 was about. Some of the last Puritans to arrive from England got to Massachusetts expecting to find the Puritan Experiment still running. When they found that the government was specifically dictating to the churches and to teachers, they rebelled - and were tried for heresy, convicted, and thrown out of Puritan New England for being, yes, too Puritan. So the Puritan Experiment was, realistically speaking, over.

But along the way, the Puritans had discovered one embarrassing truth. Being a Puritan was a great way to get rich. It wasn't supposed to be, it just worked out that way. Puritans were a deeply pleasure-phobic culture, firmly committed to restricting and avoiding pleasure. They were also fully convinced of the redeeming power of gainful employment, and not just any employment, but hard work. And along the way, they found out something that any Greek hoplite of the 4th century BCE could have told them: working hard and not spending any money is how you get rich. What makes this embarrassing to Puritans is that getting rich means that you no longer have to work hard or avoid pleasure. Puritanism contains the seeds of its own destruction. Successful Puritans naturally accumulate the wealth that corrupts them (and especially, corrupts their children) from being successful Puritans. During the Enlightenment a generation later, an ameliorating trend was invented. The cure to having too much wealth is investment. What's supposed to cure you from the tendency to spend your accumulated wealth on frivolous pleasures is the opportunity to turn it into even greater wealth -- harnessing pure greed and envy to the service of greater virtue.

Since then, this is the number one fundamental principle of conservatism. This is the obvious truth that hardly needs to be said in public debate. The method to improve your lot in life, and your family's lot in life, is widely known and well documented. Anything that encourages you to stay in school until you get a good job, get married and never stray, work every waking hour, save every penny, and invest every possible penny into improving your children's lot in life is good. Anything that distracts you from doing those things is bad.

How can conservatives want to destroy every governmental institution that helps the poor, and still consider themselves good Christians? Well, what's the metaphor that we use for those social programs? We call them the "safety net," right? Well, consider this. People take more risks when there's a safety net to catch them if they fall. Conservatism doesn't want you to take risks. Conservatism wants you to follow the known rules for making yourself, and especially more so your children, wealthy and powerful. They want you to be afraid of poverty. Fear of poverty is supposed to be what keeps you on the straight and narrow path.

After all, who actually needs the public, government-funded safety net? When it doesn't exist, many people who have catastrophes happen to them get rescued anyway. They have family, or friends, or employers who value their hard work. Voluntary contributions have a huge advantage over governmental contributions - they only go to the worthy. In an entirely voluntary charity situation, the only people who don't get help are the totally isolated, the totally friendless, and those who are disapproved of by the people they know because of the choices they made. In a conservative world view, such people are meant to be made examples of.

This is so obvious that it doesn't even have to be explained to most people. Most people can easily think of family dramas, where ne'er-do-wells in the family were allowed to sink into poverty because they were so determinedly bent on self-destruction. Well, if somebody's that bent on self-destruction, if somebody's that determined not to stay on the straight-and-narrow, what entitles them to being helped? And what makes you think that helping them is going to actually help them, instead of simply enabling them to continue in their self-destructive ways? What makes you so sure that letting them sink isn't the compassionate thing to do? Shouldn't they be allowed to hit bottom, if that's what it takes to show them the error of their ways? And what makes you think that even if you can help them, that you're not doing even more harm to several other people, by giving them a bad example of somebody who made inappropriate choices and yet did OK?

liberal economics explained to conservatives
I used to be a Republican, now I'm a Democrat, and of course, as everybody knows, I love explaining things in terms of basic principles. That's why back in April I wrote an essay trying to explain to my fellow liberals why conservatives think the way that they do. Now I'm ready to return the favor, but it's going to take two essays, because the two distinct threads of liberalism have less in common with each other than the various flavors of conservatism have in common with each other. But I will say this: from the way that conservatives talk, it is painfully obvious to me that they just plain do not understand liberalism at its most basic level. And as with all cases where people on opposite sides of an issue don't understand each other's motives, since they can't think of any honest reason why the other person would disagree with them, there can only be dishonest or otherwise evil reasons. Allow me to demonstrate that there's nothing evil, and everything sane and reasonable, about liberalism.

The first principle of economic liberalism is that there are certain services that, unless everybody gets them, everybody suffers. Let me give you a perfect example, because we actually tested this in history. We don't have to imagine what privatized fire protection looks like, because until about 90 years ago, nearly all fire fighters in America were privatized. If you bought home owner's insurance, it included with it a metal plaque you bolted to the front of your house. Then, if your house caught fire, you could call the fire protection company that was subcontracted to your insurance company, and they would come out to fight the fire. If a fire fighting company got out to your house and the plaque wasn't there, they'd turn around and go home. Which is what you deserve for not buying insurance, right? Well, even if you think that way, what about the houses on either side of you? If your house is allowed to burn to the ground just because you didn't buy insurance, what's going to stop that fire from spreading to their houses? Sure, they might have one or more fire protection companies on call, but won't they have a lot less damage to their house if, instead, your house isn't allowed to burn until the fire spreads?

If anybody doesn't get immunizations and related basic health care, then everybody has to risk living in a city where plague is spreading death and decay and the resulting vermin and rot.
If anybody doesn't get police protection, then everybody has to live in a city where the criminals have safe havens they can retreat to.
If anybody doesn't get a full education, then everybody has to live in a city where the permanently unemployable have nothing better to do than to burn the city down, and plenty of incentive to do so.
Granted, I chose the easy cases first, but not the easiest. Even conservatives understand that you can't privatize national defense, because when the army has to go overseas to protect America from some imminent threat, it's not as if they can "only" protect the people who paid for the army.

The second principle of economic liberalism is that it makes the most sense to pay for these things by taxing the people who can afford to pay. From the standpoint of pure fairness, you'd like to pay for these things with a flat tax. After all, if everybody receives the same benefit, everybody ought to pay the same price. Not that, in America, everybody receives the same benefit. It's not as if poor neighborhoods get the same quality of schools or policing that rich neighborhoods do. But let's keep things simple, and imagine a world in which everybody did get a fair share of the things that everybody has to have or else society will crumble. In such a world, everybody ought to pay the same price. After all, McDonald's doesn't "means-test" its hamburgers. If Bill Gates wants a Happy Meal, he pays the same price for it that I do, because we both eat the same snack and get the same toy. That's only fair, right?

But what if you took 100% of the income of the poorest people in America, set that as the baseline for taxation, and charged everybody that much? It wouldn't come to anywhere near enough to pay for even the minimum basic services. So somebody's going to have to pay more, or else we have to choose to let society crumble. And to some extent, in America, we have chosen to let society crumble rather than collect enough taxes to pay for these things, as even a casual drive past a rural or inner city school will show you; you can see the broken windows and sagging roofs from the street without even getting out of your car. But even with all of the social pressure to not charge rich people an "unfair" amount for services that everybody gets, we still do have to charge them more. As any conservative can readily tell you, the richest 25% of Americans pay 83% of the income taxes collected, and the poorest 50% pay only 4% of the income taxes collected. But the fact of the matter is that those poorest 50% can't afford to pay another dime.

The third principle of economic liberalism is that the middle class is "the economy."</b> Conservatives believe that if you cut taxes on the rich, they'll invest that money into companies, which will use that money to hire more people or pay more overtime, and therefore everybody benefits. For the last four years, we've been testing that theory. And indeed, rich people did invest that money in creating jobs ... elsewhere. They also invested that money in technology that could be used to replace workers. In short, giving money back to rich people resulted in them using that money to make it harder for ordinary Americans, the 80% or so of us who identify as middle class, from earning a living, let alone earning enough to invest anything in preparing our kids to better themselves, let alone enough to be able to pay enough taxes on to support the cities we all live in. And so after four years of tax cuts for the top 10% of all wage earners, we have the predictable result that cities are going bankrupt, and families are going bankrupt. And the other effect of this is that the companies themselves are going bankrupt ... because nobody can afford to buy their products.

Liberals understand that the biggest single problem with the economy, not just here in the USA but around the world, is insufficient demand. How many empty factories do we have? How many warehouses full of machine tools and processed raw materials do we have? How many workers do we have looking for jobs making things? How many people do we have who don't have enough things to live on? Why can't we move the huge inventories of processed raw materials and machine tools to the idled factories, hire the unemployed to work in those factories, and make the things that people need but don't have? The reason that we don't is that the people who need those things can't afford to buy them. And the reason that they can't afford to buy them is that wages are too low. Sweatshop workers in Burma and Indonesia and Malaysia don't buy a lot of American products, or for that matter, not a lot of Burmese or Indonesian or Malaysian products, either.

In summary, liberals don't support more public sector jobs and spending because public sector workers vote Democratic, but because they see things that every American must have access to or we all suffer along with them. Liberals don't support higher taxes on the wealthy because they feel entitled to steal from the rich, but because somebody has to pay for the things that we all benefit from (including the rich), and the rich are the only ones who can afford it. Liberals don't support higher wages and protection for American jobs because corporate officers and top shareholders vote Republican and unions vote Democratic, but because they understand that as long as Americans don't make good wages, the whole economy will be worse than it could be for rich and poor alike.

....
 
its funny how most non hindi communities keep stating karma and that karma they are talking about is quite different from the notion those the hindus talk about.
 
its funny how most non hindi communities keep stating karma and that karma they are talking about is quite different from the notion those the hindus talk about.

For those who have not watched the new Comedy "Outsourced", this was close to a throw-away line by the Hindi assistant manager.
 
its funny how most non hindi communities keep stating karma and that karma they are talking about is quite different from the notion those the hindus talk about.

Whatever you want to call it the article is a very good explanation of what 'conservatives' see as fair.
 
along these lines brad hicks (who is often insightful, even if he is a disturbed individual) has too really good articles explaining conservatives to liberals and vice versa

I thought the article did a great job of covering the conservative side but was very poor in the opposite. I'd expect this from someone coming from the left, and the author was honest in offering his bias.

I thought many conservatives understand the animal spirits argument that Hicks explained. I think the issue is more of the Big Tent containing contradictory elements. Example: Hicks says we need to raise demand (make and consume more stuff), but the left is known to push conserve everything and anything legislation (or EPA executive force). It's hard to vote for someone who says conserve it all, but raise demand... we need to save more as a nation but spend like a patriot to get us out of the recession... we need to shut Mountain Pass because it's too polluting, but we must have those windmills, batteries, etc. that require what they're mining. Ya see where I'm going? It's hard to work with people you disagree with and contradict themselves. Disagreement is one thing, speaking out of both sides of your neck is another.

Hicks also cherry picked. Conservatives see a need for government. The issue is if government is going to far or not.
 
if that show was a running bit on limbaugh i bet many of you would find it revolting and talk about how racist hte right is

It is possible Limbaugh could do a running bit like that where the Indian culture was treated as legitimate and with respect. However, it would be 1) seemingly against the general tenor of his show, and 2) probably picked apart more than necessary by people who hate Limbaugh, even on the rare occasions he has a point. So, I doubt he would try.

Example: Hicks says we need to raise demand (make and consume more stuff), but the left is known to push conserve everything and anything legislation (or EPA executive force). It's hard to vote for someone who says conserve it all, but raise demand...

A better description would be attempting to raise demand in a manner that is far-sighted rather than short-sighted, if you really wanted to discuss how the liberals saw their position, rather than caricature it.
 
Whatever you want to call it the article is a very good explanation of what 'conservatives' see as fair.

Can I ask you what your definition of conservative is?

Nice Dwight quote, the problems the United States right now is suffering in regards to Iran is actually his fault. It was ironic of him to say that because of how easy he was manipulated by the British.
 
A better description would be attempting to raise demand in a manner that is far-sighted rather than short-sighted, if you really wanted to discuss how the liberals saw their position, rather than caricature it.

Take a breath or two. All I said is how I see the conservatives seeing things, ya know? If you think you can do a better job than Mr. Hicks, then by all means take the stage. Endlessly adding hit points is pretty senseless, but apparently it gets you off.
 
Take a breath or two. All I said is how I see the conservatives seeing things, ya know? If you think you can do a better job than Mr. Hicks, then by all means take the stage. Endlessly adding hit points is pretty senseless, but apparently it gets you off.

In a thread originally about how conservatives see themselves and how liberals see themselves, I respoded to a post about how conservatives see liberals with a post about how liberals see themselves. There was no breathlessness involved, no hit points added, no geting off by anyone. Just a return to the topic at hand.
 
In a thread originally about how conservatives see themselves and how liberals see themselves, I respoded to a post about how conservatives see liberals with a post about how liberals see themselves. There was no breathlessness involved, no hit points added, no geting off by anyone. Just a return to the topic at hand.

my apologies my friend for straying away from how this thread was going, you are correct in this regard.
 
if that show was a running bit on limbaugh i bet many of you would find it revolting and talk about how racist hte right is

Actually I don't watch outsourced precisely for this reason.

I watched a chunk of the pilot, realized all the "jokes" required an Indian accent or revolved around curry and promptly quit.
 
Actually I don't watch outsourced precisely for this reason.

I watched a chunk of the pilot, realized all the "jokes" required an Indian accent or revolved around curry and promptly quit.

I would say in the three episodes since then, the non-Indians (two Americans, one Australian) have been protrayed less sympathetically and more stereotypically overall than the Indians.
 
along these lines brad hicks (who is often insightful, even if he is a disturbed individual) has too really good articles explaining conservatives to liberals and vice versa

https://bradhicks.livejournal.com/53848.html
...Puritans were a deeply pleasure-phobic culture, firmly committed to restricting and avoiding pleasure. They were also fully convinced of the redeeming power of gainful employment, and not just any employment, but hard work. And along the way, they found out something that any Greek hoplite of the 4th century BCE could have told them: working hard and not spending any money is how you get rich. What makes this embarrassing to Puritans is that getting rich means that you no longer have to work hard or avoid pleasure. Puritanism contains the seeds of its own destruction...

liberal economics explained to conservatives

...But what if you took 100% of the income of the poorest people in America, set that as the baseline for taxation, and charged everybody that much? It wouldn't come to anywhere near enough to pay for even the minimum basic services. So somebody's going to have to pay more, or else we have to choose to let society crumble. And to some extent, in America, we have chosen to let society crumble rather than collect enough taxes to pay for these things, as even a casual drive past a rural or inner city school will show you...


....

thanks for that TIS, do you have a link for the second article?

though I would argue that, at least in Chicago, the school buildings, for the most part, are in pretty good shape, esp. some of the older, classic structures - - it's what happens inside those buildings that's troubling.

and I don't know enough about the particulars of the educational systems in Europe or Asia to know if the inner city schools in other countries share some of the same issues as our schools...
 
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