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Could Kanter and Gobert have worked?

CAKAR said:
Kanter always was a bad fit in Utah, people have to realize it. If you have Memo, Lord AL, Milsap, Favors, Evans you don´t draft a 19 year old player who needs playing time desperately. Kanter was drafted 3rd, but was treated like a late first round pick. In a team without already All-Star caliber Bigs, he would have produced like 12,12 per game, as a 19 year old rookie. He was pretty special and raw, but was treated like a D league scrub.

Thats just a big failure of management for not taking a guard with big time shooting ability like Klay, when they have already 4 great Bigs. With Klay, Burks, AL, Harris, Millsap to content for a Ring...

Now you have lost an potential All-Star Big-Man, without getting any value...
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No, it wasn't a mistake. Jazz were drafting for the future. The plan was to have Kanter/Favors replace Jefferson/Millsap - which is EAXCTLY what happened. Playing time was ONLY an issue in year #2. It wasn't like Kanter came in as a college star. He was a PROJECT - even at #3. Are you really Max Ergul? He was not treated like a scrub. He got 13 mins/per and played in every game as a rookie. That's not all that different than Favors, who was also raw AND A #3 PICK coming out of college. You CAN make an argument for being underutilized in Year #2 behind Big AL. But watch Enes' game. There is NO question he learned a ton under Jefferson's tutelage. And then the Jazz committed to Enes last season and again this year by making him a starter.

Really, it comes down to value. There was no way to keep all 3 bigs happy. So did the Jazz want Kanter over Favors or Gobert, because one of those two would have needed to come off the bench and would have asked for a trade, the same as Enes did. I'll bet the Jazz would have gotten a way better deal out of trading Derrick or Rudy. Favors has an amazing contract and Rudy has 2 more years left on his rookie deal. So pay Enes $16M, start him alongside Gobert? or Favors? and get 3 firsts for whichever player you trade? Does that make Utah a better team going forward? And what message does that send to the rest of the team about how important defense is?
 
I saw this in Kevin Pelton's last chat on ESPN...

Pete (Minneapolis)

Is Kanter that bad? How are the Jazz so much better after trading him?


Kevin Pelton (1:38 PM)

In fairness to Kanter, the Jazz were already showing signs of development in late January and early February before the trade. That said, while there are a lot of other factors, I don't think it's entirely a coincidence that Oklahoma City has dropped from 10th in defensive rating before the deadline to 24th thereafter, and Utah has improved from 27th before the deadline to first thereafter. If you look just at Kanter's point and rebound totals, you get an incomplete picture of how he affects a game.
 
Lets look at this again ---

The Jazz have gone from 27th in defensive rating to 1st in the league in defensive rating since they traded Kanter.

OKC has gone from 10th to 24th in defensive rating since they traded for Kanter.


Now combine this with the fact that Kanter wants a deal closer to Hayward's than to Favors' and you can see why he was traded out.

The opportunity cost of keeping Kanter was too high.


So no, it couldn't have really worked, all things considered. It sucks that we didn't get a better return on a #3 pick, but the good news is that we're getting good return on some of our other picks. Kanter's draft just wasn't that strong....Derrick Williams, Tristan Thompson, Jonas Valanciunas, Jan Veseley, Bismack Biyombo and Brandon Knight were the guys the Jazz could have ended up with instead.
 
Catchall said:
I saw this in Kevin Pelton's last chat on ESPN...

Pete (Minneapolis)

Is Kanter that bad? How are the Jazz so much better after trading him?


Kevin Pelton (1:38 PM)

In fairness to Kanter, the Jazz were already showing signs of development in late January and early February before the trade. That said, while there are a lot of other factors, I don't think it's entirely a coincidence that Oklahoma City has dropped from 10th in defensive rating before the deadline to 24th thereafter, and Utah has improved from 27th before the deadline to first thereafter. If you look just at Kanter's point and rebound totals, you get an incomplete picture of how he affects a game.
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lololol aint that the truth !!
 
Stifle Tower said:
No, it wasn't a mistake. Jazz were drafting for the future. The plan was to have Kanter/Favors replace Jefferson/Millsap - which is EAXCTLY what happened. Playing time was ONLY an issue in year #2. It wasn't like Kanter came in as a college star. He was a PROJECT - even at #3. Are you really Max Ergul? He was not treated like a scrub. He got 13 mins/per and played in every game as a rookie. That's not all that different than Favors, who was also raw AND A #3 PICK coming out of college. You CAN make an argument for being underutilized in Year #2 behind Big AL. But watch Enes' game. There is NO question he learned a ton under Jefferson's tutelage. And then the Jazz committed to Enes last season and again this year by making him a starter.

Really, it comes down to value. There was no way to keep all 3 bigs happy. So did the Jazz want Kanter over Favors or Gobert, because one of those two would have needed to come off the bench and would have asked for a trade, the same as Enes did. I'll bet the Jazz would have gotten a way better deal out of trading Derrick or Rudy. Favors has an amazing contract and Rudy has 2 more years left on his rookie deal. So pay Enes $16M, start him alongside Gobert? or Favors? and get 3 firsts for whichever player you trade? Does that make Utah a better team going forward? And what message does that send to the rest of the team about how important defense is?
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Ergul is a fool, for not forcing a trade years before. Utah never was a good fit for him... No, he was not the right pick because Utah never got something out of him. Utah would still have Gobert and Favors + Klay Thompson if they picked right years before. Kanter would be a double double machine elsewhere... Utah was in no rush to trade away both Millsap and AL Jefferson. They could have kept one of them and paired him with Favors and would have a wing combination of Klay and Hayward, to great shooters. Then they could have tradet one of the bigs, to get something good in return.

OKC had Reggie Jackson. Reggie is one of the best PG´s in the league, but that was never something OKC really needed. They needed a scoring Big, to pair with Durant, Ibaka and Westbrook. A potential lineup, they could play together...

If Jazz F.O and Utah Fans thought it was the best thing, to give him 12 minutes per game. Than they have never read the scouting report before the draft.

At this time it was right to move him and they moved because HE wanted out. But that is a result of some bad decisions made years before. Jazz just should have called Siegfried and Jensen.
 
Diamond77 said:
I respect your opinion but it is not reasoned. Kanter post-up game is better than Favors, and his hook shot is better too. Kanter is definitely a better free-throw shooter and can shoot some threes. Kanter has a smoother jump shot. So what are you talking about?
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Favors actually is a better offensive player than Kanter. Faves gets to the line more often, shoot the 3rd highest % of any player in the league in the restricted area, has shot the J more efficiently at around 40% and is much much better defensively which makes choosing Faves a no brainer. Favors also is a better passer and sports the 12 highest PER of any player in the league.

As CY said, Kanter is a better offensive rebounder and i'll concede he's a better free throw shooter.
 
Catchall said:
Kanter's draft just wasn't that strong....Derrick Williams, Tristan Thompson, Jonas Valanciunas, Jan Veseley, Bismack Biyombo and Brandon Knight were the guys the Jazz could have ended up with instead.
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Chandler Parsons, Jimmy Butler, Klay Thompson, Kawhi Leonard say sup.
 
CAKAR said:
OKC had Reggie Jackson. Reggie is one of the best PG´s in the league
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WTF? Are you serious?? hahahahahaha

Reggie is overrated. Uses a possession below the league average. Can't shoot 3's and doesn't get to the line. If you have a PG like that in today's game, you are in BIG trouble.
 
CAKAR said:
Ergul is a fool, for not forcing a trade years before. Utah never was a good fit for him... No, he was not the right pick because Utah never got something out of him. Utah would still have Gobert and Favors + Klay Thompson if they picked right years before. Kanter would be a double double machine elsewhere... Utah was in no rush to trade away both Millsap and AL Jefferson. They could have kept one of them and paired him with Favors and would have a wing combination of Klay and Hayward, to great shooters.

OKC had Reggie Jackson. Reggie is one of the best PG´s in the league, but that was never something OKC really needed. They needed a scoring Big, to pair with Durant, Ibaka and Westbrook. A potential lineup, they could keep together...
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You take BPA. PERIOD!
Had Utah followed your rule, Gobert would never have been drafted. You can't forecast injuries. You can't foresee a later pick coming in and pushing another one out the door. Jazz were set to proceed with Kanter/Favors as the starting bigs. Even Lindsey admits that. NO ONE expected Gobert to go beast mode this season. And in many respects, we're betting on Gobert continuing to improve, especially on the offensive side. Right now, we might have the same record - or better - and maybe even have won the games against the Lakers and Boston had Kanter been in the game. And we could have easily done that by going back to Ergul and Enes, saying no good trade offer was made and we'd try to do a S&T this summer.

I think the Enes draft really came down to Kanter, Valanciunas or Knight. None of the guys Dalamon cites was rated as highly - which often happens. In hindsight, yes, Knight would have been a better choice.
 
I think in hindsight the 2011 NBA draft was one of the better ones in a decade. It just wasn't top heavy. Klay Thompson, Kawhi Leonard, and Jimmy Butler are three of the best two way wings in the NBA. Kyrie is Kyrie. Vucevic is a double double machine. Even the 60th pick Isaiah Thomas is the best last pick in a draft.
 
Stifle Tower said:
You take BPA. PERIOD!
Had Utah followed your rule, Gobert would never have been drafted. You can't forecast injuries. You can't foresee a later pick coming in and pushing another one out the door. Jazz were set to proceed with Kanter/Favors as the starting bigs. Even Lindsey admits that. NO ONE expected Gobert to go beast mode this season. And in many respects, we're betting on Gobert continuing to improve, especially on the offensive side. Right now, we might have the same record - or better - and maybe even have won the games against the Lakers and Boston had Kanter been in the game. And we could have easily done that by going back to Ergul and Enes, saying no good trade offer was made and we'd try to do a S&T this summer.
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You just keep arguing about a situation which already failed. The Kanter Pick was never good for Utah and never good for Kanter himself. Thats a fact and reality.
 
CAKAR said:
You just keep arguing about a situation which already failed. The Kanter Pick was never good for Utah and never good for Kanter himself. Thats a fact and reality.
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Nope. The Kanter pick failed because Enes thinks he's the best player of his generation. He COULD have succeeded in Utah. It's a fact that ONLY in Year #2 does he have a real gripe. But it's a fact he learned TONS behind Big Al. He progressed more than he ever could have by just going out and playing 30 mins/per and having no mentor. Enes will have a Boozer-like career, which is exactly what he wants. Had he told Utah in pre-draft interviews that he wanted to only score, but not play defense, then we could have avoided this whole scenario.
 
Stifle Tower said:
Nope. The Kanter pick failed because Enes thinks he's the best player of his generation. He COULD have succeeded in Utah. It's a fact that ONLY in Year #2 does he have a real gripe. But it's a fact he learned TONS behind Big Al. He progressed more than he ever could have by just going out and playing 30 mins/per
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lol, Kanter was a 12, 12 player with 19 years of age he just did not get a shot to produce. That´s pretty special... Kanter already had many offensive moves before even playing an NBA game. His weakspot was 5 n 5 basketball offensively and defensively, he already just practiced for two years in Kentucky. Dude needed to learn, by playing the game. He still struggles with that and will only get better with patience.
With Al Jefferson, Millsap and Favors their was never the opportunity to give him, what he truly needed. AL was a great mentor and thats with Quin Snyder the only bright spot for him playing here.

You can not blamin everything on Kanter, when he is almost producing on allstar level for another team.
 
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