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Paris under attack

Some Muslims have that extremist interpretation of Islam, some don't. You'd think that's obvious.

I think what is being called as extremist Islam is actually the misinterpretation of the religion. Because when you say extremism, it offers that you take what is already there and push it to the limit. It's practicing it wrong. Unfortunately there are a lot of terrorist acts and warfare that puts Islam religion in the place of rage and fury, but there are many reasons for that. It definitely is not about a certain religion. Christianity took a lot of lives too for purely religious and land related reasons with Crusades and such and the Arabian culture was superior to them. Was that about the violence back then? Did Saladin Ayyubi think "Man, Christianity is such a violent religion." ? Nope he opened doors and gave freedom and life to the lost Christians. Because it's about civilization. You put their humanity above their religion when the effort is over.

ISIS is not born out of magic.

Someone created it.

Someone is trying to color your sight with the sign of "Islam is violence" notion.

Try to stay away from this.
 
I think what is being called as extremist Islam is actually the misinterpretation of the religion. Because when you say extremism, it offers that you take what is already there and push it to the limit. It's practicing it wrong. Unfortunately there are a lot of terrorist acts and warfare that puts Islam religion in the place of rage and fury, but there are many reasons for that. It definitely is not about a certain religion. Christianity took a lot of lives too for purely religious and land related reasons with Crusades and such and the Arabian culture was superior to them. Was that about the violence back then? Did Saladin Ayyubi think "Man, Christianity is such a violent religion." ? Nope he opened doors and gave freedom and life to the lost Christians. Because it's about civilization. You out their humanity above their religion when the effort is over. ISIS is not born out of magic. Someone created it. Someone is trying to color your sight with the sign of "Islam is violence" notion. Try to stay away from this.

And who are you to say that they're "practicing it wrong"? They have their Muslim scholars who support their interpretation. They are extremist because of their actions relative to the norms in the modern world.

Similarly, Middle Age Christianity was not some "misinterpretation" that they eventually got right. It was just the way religion was practiced then, which was not "extremist" compared to the norms of their times. If you have a sect that acts like Medieval Christians today, then they would be considered extremist.
 
It's not about belonging to the white race it's about belonging to the Western Civilization. You don't react to it more than the over 100 dead bodies came out of Ankara, Turkey because they are white. Even if they are black skinned they still belong to the Western Civilization. And it's not about religion too. Israel's people are Middle-Eastern and they are located in the Middle-East because they would like to do so, but since Adam Sandler is such a funny dude, they are part of the Western Civilization. Nothing to feel shame about admitting that. I love Adam Sandler, one of my favorites so I have hard time getting angry at Israel because of that.

I think it all plays a role to some degree. All I am saying.
 
And who are you to say that they're "practicing it wrong"? They have their Muslim scholars who support their interpretation. They are extremist because of their actions relative to the norms in the modern world.

Similarly, Middle Age Christianity was not some "misinterpretation" that they eventually got right. It was just the way religion was practiced then, which was not "extremist" compared to the norms of their times. If you have a sect that acts like Medieval Christians today, then they would be considered extremist.

Religious leaders tell you to kill people.

Religious people are not religion's own.

Read the books and make up your own mind.

If there is humanity left in you, then you will find the truth no matter what religion you practice or find it in your seeking of knowledge as an Atheist.
 
I think what is being called as extremist Islam is actually the misinterpretation of the religion. Because when you say extremism, it offers that you take what is already there and push it to the limit. It's practicing it wrong. Unfortunately there are a lot of terrorist acts and warfare that puts Islam religion in the place of rage and fury, but there are many reasons for that. It definitely is not about a certain religion. Christianity took a lot of lives too for purely religious and land related reasons with Crusades and such and the Arabian culture was superior to them. Was that about the violence back then? Did Saladin Ayyubi think "Man, Christianity is such a violent religion." ? Nope he opened doors and gave freedom and life to the lost Christians. Because it's about civilization. You out their humanity above their religion when the effort is over. ISIS is not born out of magic. Someone created it. Someone is trying to color your sight with the sign of "Islam is violence" notion. Try to stay away from this.

You do understand the difference between things that are happening now and things that happened 1000 years ago, right? At some point, Muslims are responsible for their religion, fair or not. Nobody outside of Islam is going to reform Islam. There is way too much fence straddling, not by the rank and file Muslims, but by the Muslim leadership of nation states. Sharia law is totally incompatible with Western civilization. As long as it is pushed, Islam will always be at odds with Western civilization and there will be conflict. I know that most Muslims don't wish to impose Sharia law, but a LOT do. That is an issue Muslims are going to have to square with themselves and determine where the heart of the religion lies.
 
In all honesty, I think a Beirut bombing not generating as much attention has mainly to do with the perception that the officials in Lebanon both tolerate and secretly support Hezbollah.

edit: I'm neither saying that's fair or valid, just how I think selectivity in the media works.
 
Religious leaders tell you to kill people.

Religious people are not religion's own.

Read the books and make up your own mind.

If there is humanity left in you, then you will find the truth no matter what religion you practice or find it in your seeking of knowledge as an Atheist.

That's all well and good. But forget the fact you're a believer and look at it objectively. Religion is just a human ideology. Someone can create hug-based religion where one faction takes it to the "extreme" and decide that their gods demand they hug everyone they meet. Still, nobody would call those obnoxious huggers "extremists", because to the outside world, nobody cares about what the middle or fringe of the religion is actually like. It is simply about their actions relative to social norms.

I don't believe in Islam, and I consequently don't think the statement "this isn't REALLY what Islam is about" to mean anything. Islam is a man-made ideology, and it is whatever men make of it. There is no ACTUAL truth to judge everyone's practices against. There is only people and their actions.
 
You do understand the difference between things that are happening now and things that happened 1000 years ago, right? At some point, Muslims are responsible for their religion, fair or not. Nobody outside of Islam is going to reform Islam. There is way too much fence straddling, not by the rank and file Muslims, but by the Muslim leadership of nation states. Sharia law is totally incompatible with Western civilization. As long as it is pushed, Islam will always be at odds with Western civilization and there will be conflict. I know that most Muslims don't wish to impose Sharia law, but a LOT do. That is an issue Muslims are going to have to square with themselves and determine where the heart of the religion lies.

I cannot begin to describe how much I would desire this to happen. And as a sand in history's hourglass, I will probably fail to see it happen, but it will happen one day.

I'm just saying that stay away from the propaganda that generalizes the entire religion and its entire people into violence image. There might appear a lot of violent news, but you don't see us peaceful people in the news. Don't forget that. Don't taste the hatred building medicine they are giving to the world.
 
What an absolute ****fest of a massacre in Paris. Pretty ****ing horrible seeing some of the videos floating out there on the internets.

This enemy of ours that we ALL have is the equivalent of a Nazi Kamikaze. The worst of the worst. An enemy so committed to his or her cause that after they are done doing their collective killing, they are willing to blow themselves up leaving us with no legal recourse and no psychological closure. And since many of them function in the old and tried method of the clandestine cell, it's extremely difficult to stop them, especially when the members are NOT foreign born. To complicate matters, they don't function on a traditional timeline and are willing to wait years if need be. This is asymmetrical warfare in the most clear cut definition. Bombing strategic spots in Syria won't do anything, well, not in the long term. I mean, you kill the head of this perceived snake and a new head grows and grows and grows.

I think most that are arguing in this thread that there are no connections to the Syrian refugees are mostly correct but at least one of the terrorists, currently being reported, came through WITH the refugees. I think what's troublesome is the demographics of the refugees. Historically, most refugees have been women, children and the elderly, as most men stay to fight but in this current crisis, there are many men of fighting age coming over. And as we can see, it can only take one man to wreak havoc on a populace. ISIL is supremely intelligent and to think otherwise is naive.

Yes, I definitely agree that ISIL is fighting for the minds of the moderate Muslims which makes complete sense. We do ourselves no benefit when via social media we rally as a world when westerners are killed but barely bat an eye when horrific massacres happen in the Middle East. We mustn't forget that most of the casualties of this current Islamic terrorism have been Muslim folk. It only takes a handful of folks to carry out wanton violence.

In regards to the attacks, the sitting duck aspect is horrifying. It reminded me immediately of the Charlie Hebdo attack and that video of the police officer laying on his back pleading for his life as the terrorist killed him. That poor dude did not have a fighting chance and that's inexcusable. What's also troublesome, at least in my opinion, is that there are many reports that the terrorists in the Bataclan reloaded their weapons. A few seconds of respite from mayhem and no one tried to fight back? This is NOT a condemnation of the victims but a commentary on the larger picture of the world. We are living during such a peaceful time, that most, except, of course those that have served, have no concept of war or it's trappings. We have no reference to the smell of death. This is a great thing in of itself, as this is what countries strive for, the possibility of their citizens living in a peaceful world, but does it affect us in the negative during these types of situations? If your death is the ONLY outcome than anything you do is a positive. Granted, the probability of being involved in one of these types of attacks is very small but if you or I or someone we love is involved we can only hope we have the mindset of those Americans on United 93.

I don't know what the long game is with this current "war." But I don't think I'm alone in thinking that our involvement in the Middle East hasn't really benefitted us or that area. If anything, I think things are worse but who knows.

Man, poor folks.
 
This enemy of ours that we ALL have is the equivalent of a Nazi Kamikaze. The worst of the worst. An enemy so committed to his or her cause that after they are done doing their collective killing, they are willing to blow themselves up leaving us with no legal recourse and no psychological closure.

It is pretty telling when EVERYONE is against you.

America and Russia
Iran and Israel
Anonymous and Gov. hackers
Syria and Saudi Arabia
Turkey and Kurds
Even other terrorist groups want you dead
 
quite a while back I listened to a very interesting podcast about the "dark web" - - and bitcoin and what-not and how all sorts of criminal elements are using it to procure and/or distribute drugs and weapons
(I'll edit in a link if I can find it)

edit: KCRW (from Santa Monica, CA) podcast of "To The Point from Aug 21, 2013 "The Dark Side of the Cloud"
https://www.kcrw.com/news-culture/shows/to-the-point/the-dark-side-of-the-internet-anonymity-after-all


(actually there was also a separate podcast a few months later about bitcoin that was also interesting)

I have some experience with deep web markets. Well over 90% of transactions (at least in the United States) are for controlled substances. The majority of the rest is for low-level fraud (things like pirated memberships to porn sites). The hardest part is actually buying bitcoin (this is a pain in the *** if you've ever tried).

Guns, frankly, are too hard to ship to get significant volume from deep web markets. When you're talking about organized operation I have doubts that terrorist organizations are using open markets to conduct their business.

You do understand the difference between things that are happening now and things that happened 1000 years ago, right? At some point, Muslims are responsible for their religion, fair or not. Nobody outside of Islam is going to reform Islam. There is way too much fence straddling, not by the rank and file Muslims, but by the Muslim leadership of nation states. Sharia law is totally incompatible with Western civilization. As long as it is pushed, Islam will always be at odds with Western civilization and there will be conflict. I know that most Muslims don't wish to impose Sharia law, but a LOT do. That is an issue Muslims are going to have to square with themselves and determine where the heart of the religion lies.

I think this is where people get confused: this is a state issue more than a religious issue. The attack on Turkey should be instructive. Turkey is a true oddity on the globe. It is a country where 98% of the population is islamic (obviously a much lower rate are true believers) but it's baked into the national culture that there is true separation of church and state. As a result, it has no state religion and intolerant behavior towards minorities is essentially taboo in the political culture.

It's a free society that, in my ways, is more European than Middle-Eastern despite having a strong demographic resemblance to the middle east. They are attacked not because they are a different culture in religious terms (they are not) or because the attackers think of them as foreign invaders (they are not). They are a target precisely because they allow, by and large, freedom of expression and ideas that are not permitted by a cultural viewpoint that treats its religion as entirely serious and beyond any question or satire. The "war" the West will ultimately have to win is freedom of speech rather than destruction of religious ideals. Satire is going to be the weapon that, when it reaches the public, will ultimately be the death knell of radical Islamism.
 
The "war" the West will ultimately have to win is freedom of speech rather than destruction of religious ideals. Satire is going to be the weapon that, when it reaches the public, will ultimately be the death knell of radical Islamism.

Can you be more specific here? This sounds too esoteric to make sense to me.
 
Can you be more specific here? This sounds too esoteric to make sense to me.

*Obvious punchline*

When Syria becomes a place where a citizen can successfully petition to wear a pasta strainer on their head for "religious reasons," then ISIL/ISIS is effectively dead.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...etti-monster-massachusetts-religion/75862946/

Ideas are powerful. Funny ideas are attractive. You win ideological wars with ideas. There's a reason the targets are more cultural targets than government or military oriented.
 
The Attacks in Paris Reveal the Strategic limitations of ISIS
By OLIVIER ROY
NOVEMBER 16, 2015
FLORENCE, Italy — As President François Hollande of France has declared, the country is at war with the Islamic State. France considers the Islamist group, also known as ISIS, to be its greatest enemy today. It fights it on the front lines alongside the Americans in the Middle East, and as the sole Western nation in the Sahel. It has committed to this battle, first started in Mali in 2013, a share of its armed forces much greater than has the United States.

On Friday night, France paid the price for this. Messages expressing solidarity have since poured in from all over the Western world. Yet France stands oddly alone: Until now, no other state has treated ISIS as the greatest strategic threat to the world today.

The main actors in the Middle East deem other enemies to be more important. Bashar al-Assad’s main adversary is the Syrian opposition — now also the main target of Russia, which supports him. Mr. Assad would indeed benefit from there being nothing between him and ISIS: That would allow him to cast himself as the last bastion against Islamist terrorism, and to reclaim in the eyes of the West the legitimacy he lost by so violently repressing his own people.

The Turkish government is very clear: Its main enemy is Kurdish separatism. And a victory of Syrian Kurds over ISIS might allow the Kurdistan Workers’ Party, or P.K.K., to gain a sanctuary, and resume its armed struggle against Turkey.


The Kurds, be they Syrian or Iraqi, seek not to crush ISIS so much as to defend their newfound borders. They hope the Arab world will become more divided than ever. They want to seize Sinjar because it is in a Kurdish area. But they won’t attack Mosul, because that would be playing into Baghdad’s hands.

For the Kurds of Iraq, the main danger is seeing a strong central government emerge in Baghdad, for it could challenge the de facto independence of Iraqi Kurdistan today. ISIS stands in the way of the creation of any such power.

The Shiites of Iraq, no matter what pressure they face from America, do not seem ready to die to reclaim Falluja. They will defend sectarian borders, and will never let Baghdad fall. But they are in no hurry to bring the Sunni minority back into Iraq’s political mainstream; if they did, they would have to share power with it.

For the Saudis, the main enemy isn’t ISIS, which represents a form of Sunni radicalism they have always supported. So they do nothing against it, their main enemy being Iran.


Police patrol the Place de la République in Paris.
PIERRE TERDJMAN FOR THE NEW YORK TIMES
The Iranians, for their part, want to contain ISIS but not necessarily to destroy it: Its very existence prevents the return of the kind of Arab Sunni coalition that gave them such trouble during their war with Iraq under Saddam Hussein.

Then there is Israel, which can only be pleased to see Hezbollah fighting Arabs, Syria collapsing, Iran mired in an uncertain war and everyone forgetting the Palestinian cause.

In short, no regional player is willing to send out its forces, bayonets at the ready, to reclaim land from ISIS. Then again, unlike after 9/11, neither are the Americans. The United States’ strategy today relies on waging a war from afar, based on aerial strikes; Washington does not have the political will to send ground troops. Containment will have to do, and so, too, will killing terrorists by way of bombs and drones.

But war is not won without infantry.


France is perhaps alone in wanting and trying to annihilate ISIS. Only it doesn’t have the means to wage such a war on two fronts, in both the Sahel and the Middle East.

Yet if France lacks the means to live up to its ambitions, fortunately for its sake, so does ISIS. Much as with Al Qaeda earlier, the successes of ISIS increasingly amount to its grabbing headlines and the attention of social media. The ISIS system has already hit its limits.

It had two prongs: lightning-quick territorial expansion, and shock and awe. ISIS is hardly an Islamic “state,” if only because, unlike the Taliban, it claims no specific territory or boundaries. It is more like a caliphate, forever in conquest mode — occupying new lands, rallying Muslims from around the world — like the Muslim expansionist movement during Islam’s first century. This feature has attracted thousands of volunteers, drawn by the idea of fighting for global Islam rather than for a piece of the Middle East.

But ISIS’ reach is bounded; there are no more areas in which it can extend by claiming to be a defender of Sunni Arab populations. To the north, there are Kurds; to the east, Iraqi Shiites; to the west, Alawites, now protected by the Russians. And all are resisting it. To the south, neither the Lebanese, who worry about the influx of Syrian refugees, nor the Jordanians, who are still reeling from the horrid execution of one of their pilots, nor the Palestinians have succumbed to any fascination for ISIS. Stalled in the Middle East, ISIS is rushing headlong into globalized terrorism.

The attack against Hezbollah in Beirut, the attack against the Russians in Sharm el Sheikh and the attacks in Paris had the same goal: terror. But just as the execution of the Jordanian pilot sparked patriotism among even the heterogeneous population of Jordan, the attacks in Paris will turn the battle against ISIS into a national cause. ISIS will hit the same wall as Al Qaeda: Globalized terrorism is no more effective, strategically, than conducting aerial bombings without forces on the ground. Much like Al Qaeda, ISIS has no support among the Muslim people living in Europe. It recruits only at the margins.

The question now is how to translate into action the outrage sparked by Friday’s attacks in Paris. A massive ground operation by Western forces, like the one conducted in Afghanistan in 2001, seems out of the question, if only because an international intervention would get mired in endless local conflicts. A coordinated offensive by local powers seems unlikely, given the differences among their goals and ulterior motives: It would require striking a political agreement among regional actors, starting with Saudi Arabia and Iran.

So the road ahead is long, unless ISIS suddenly collapses under the vanity of its own expansionist aspirations or tensions between its foreign recruits and local Arab populations. In any event, ISIS is its own worst enemy.

Olivier Roy is a professor at the European University Institute in Florence and the author of “Globalized Islam.”

Fantastic article in the Times, translated from French. Goes over why the ME hasn't jointly killed ISIS

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/11/...-isis.html?smid=tw-nytimes&smtyp=cur&referer=
 
Fantastic article in the Times, translated from French. Goes over why the ME hasn't jointly killed ISIS

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/11/...-isis.html?smid=tw-nytimes&smtyp=cur&referer=

Then NATO and BRICS need to step up and force their hand. Make them so much skin in the game that they can't survive without acting. Not just pressure on one but on them all, including Israel and Palestine.

You could do this by the promises of what they would get for unified action v. the penalties for not taking unified action.

Total pipe dream and will never happen though.
 
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