How bad is Kanter?

[MDAV28]

Did you even read my post? DL was GM for the 2012/13 season. That team was already a dead-end. Al and Paul could have been moved before they walked in 2013. DL apparently thought it was better to sit in his office and watch the team finish in the late lottery.

What do we take back for 22.2 million of unrestricted contracts (almost 1/3 of the cap in 2013) between Millsap and Jefferson that doesn't hinder our cap flexibility? He obviously saw the team was a dead-end, hence the rebuild bud.

We basically traded Millsap and Jefferson (and Kevin Murphy) for Biedrins, Rush, Jefferson, 2 first rounds picks (one has turned into Rodney Hood), 3 second round picks, cash, and flexibility (to resign Hayward, Favors, Burks, Kanter if needed, and now Gobert, Exum, Hood, etc.)

 

[spycam1]

What success? I'm pointing out what I see as a flaw in what DL has actually done. I've admitted that I don't know what goes on behind the scenes, and that the Al, Paul and Kanter ****-ups (along with the in-season and free agency inaction) could be explained in numerous ways in isolation. I just think the fellating of DL is premature. Look at what he inherited, and look at where the team is now. Had I told you in the summer of 2012 that this is what you had to look forward to, would you have considered it a success?

And yeah, the Burke, Gobert and GS trades were good. Hood and Exum were mocked to go higher in the draft, and essentially fell in the Jazz's lap (and Exum is still just a question mark).The Favors extension was a no-brainer, DL ultimately made the right decision on Hayward after miscalculating his FA price in extension negotiations, and the Burks extension looks good so far. That doesn't erase how Al, Millsap, Kanter, free agency, and potential in-season moves have been mishandled. Dancing in the streets after 3 **** seasons because your team might be one of 16 in the playoffs this year seems more delusional to me.

Yes, I would consider this a success. There were four potential franchise changers in the 2014 Draft, and we got one of them. We got what could go down as the best defensive talent in this generation in Gobert. We now have who I consider to be the best up and coming coach in the league. I see the potential for a contender growing. A lot of that is riding on Exum living up to the hype, but the potential IS there. The only other young team in the league that you could argue has a better chance at becoming contenders one day is Minnesota.

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[GVC]

What do we take back for 22.2 million of unrestricted contracts (almost 1/3 of the cap in 2013) between Millsap and Jefferson that doesn't hinder our cap flexibility?

What are unrestricted contracts? The Jazz could have traded for other expiring contracts and picks (or just other expiring contracts), and tanked a year earlier.

We basically traded Millsap and Jefferson (and Kevin Murphy) for Biedrins, Rush, Jefferson, 2 first rounds picks (one has turned into Rodney Hood), 3 second round picks, and cash.

Given the above, I don't accept this narrative (obviously).

I do accept that it's possible, if not probable, that the Millers wanted the Jazz to try to make the playoffs in 2012/13, and instructed DL to avoid trades that hindered that goal. Still, I think a GM should be evaluated (primarily) based on where he is relative to where he started. In his 4th season, DL may have finally put together a team as good as the dead-end team he inherited. That's less than impressive in my opinion.

That's not to say he's a terrible GM who needs to be fired yesterday, but there's still work to be done. This team doesn't currently have the talent to contend before the current crop of players are up for new contracts.

 

[Jazz4ever]

What success? I'm pointing out what I see as a flaw in what DL has actually done. I've admitted that I don't know what goes on behind the scenes, and that the Al, Paul and Kanter ****-ups (along with the in-season and free agency inaction) could be explained in numerous ways in isolation. I just think the fellating of DL is premature. Look at what he inherited, and look at where the team is now. Had I told you in the summer of 2012 that this is what you had to look forward to, would you have considered it a success?

And yeah, the Burke, Gobert and GS trades were good. Hood and Exum were mocked to go higher in the draft, and essentially fell in the Jazz's lap (and Exum is still just a question mark).The Favors extension was a no-brainer, DL ultimately made the right decision on Hayward after miscalculating his FA price in extension negotiations, and the Burks extension looks good so far. That doesn't erase how Al, Millsap, Kanter, free agency, and potential in-season moves have been mishandled. Dancing in the streets after 3 **** seasons because your team might be one of 16 in the playoffs this year seems more delusional to me.

Jazz are the youngest team in the league guy. They beat EVERY elite team at least once last year. They finished with a historically good defense in the second half. I guess you think DL should have been a miracle worker and flipped Al and Paul for Lebron. Their realistic trade value was Rudy Gay, Monta Ellis types. Overpaid vets like themselves who have put up decent volume numbers on horrible teams. If you put them on DL's asset list to attack him, then expect to be called out on it. You have yet to give one actual realistic name Al or Paul could have fetched, and that is always the case in the Al/Paul talks, how predictable. Real GMs actually have to target a player, find a good fit for both teams, make the salaries work, etc. Let's keep railing DL with these fantasy, hollow, arguments, that's fun.

 

[GVC]

*irrelevant nonsense*

Reading is fundamental. Stay in school.

 

[zbone]

In his 4th season, DL may have finally put together a team as good as the dead-end team he inherited. That's less than impressive in my opinion.

Well, here I disagree with you. This team is young and up and coming. At worst it will be a low seed playoff team which was best case for the team DL inherited. If the assets that old team had don't get converted into something much better then we can say DL failed but at this point this yet to be seen.
This doesn't mean we can't say that Millsap/Al/Kanter assets were straight up wasted.

 

[GVC]

Well, here I disagree with you.

That's fine.

This team is young and up and coming. At worst it will be a low seed playoff team which was best case for the team DL inherited.

This team could absolutely miss the playoffs.

If the assets that old team had don't get converted into something much better then we can say DL failed but at this point this yet to be seen.

I agree. I'm not starting a "Fire DL" bandwagon or anything. I don't think the team as constructed has enough talent to contend now or in the future. There's still work to be done.

This doesn't mean we can't say that Millsap/Al/Kanter assets were straight up wasted.

Yep.

 

[zbone]

This team could absolutely miss the playoffs.

I mean in mid-short term for the team that currently being built the floor is low playoff birth. The guys will get better simply because it's natural for such young team, we have more than plenty of cap room for signing better role players to strengthen our bench.
Could we get it better like OKC? Yes
Could we get it worse? Most certainly.

 

[gomretat]

After the Jazz were swept by the Spurs, roughly everyone recognized that Al Jefferson and, to a lesser extent, Paul Millsap weren't going to lead the team much further. They were also entering the last season on their deals. If the plan was to tank for a star, what was DL doing in his first season as GM? What was the point in keeping Al and Paul that season? Why not start the rebuild/tank a year earlier?

I seriously doubt DL was sitting on hands with these guys. But it is also very clear that he was not going to take people in return who took up a lot of cap space unless they were young and could be part of the rebuild process. That works for me.

 

[Deleted member 848]

GVC still working that DL is overrated shtick I see. He must have missed Jeff Van Gundy showering him with praise recently.

 

[Stoked]

That's fine.

This team could absolutely miss the playoffs.

I agree. I'm not starting a "Fire DL" bandwagon or anything. I don't think the team as constructed has enough talent to contend now or in the future. There's still work to be done.

Yep.

I think you are to pessimistic on this team. However, I agree that there is still work to be done. The back up bigs absolutely need to be addressed. They have been a glaring weakness. Neto isn't getting it done so another PG needs to be brought in. One that can contribute. Then either make that PG (preferably one that can shoot the 3) or Burke the starter depending on fit with the team.

Ingles needs to be moved to 3rd stringer and ultimately Johnson and Millsap need to get let go.

 

[MDAV28]

In his 4th season, DL may have finally put together a team as good as the dead-end team he inherited. That's less than impressive in my opinion.

Except the fact that the team is not a dead-end team anymore and could have a top 5 two way SF, PF, and C mixed with 2 guards who can flat out score and an great PG prospect. Also you do realize the Jazz still ended with a top 10 pick in 2013 and had one of the most successful drafts in that crappy class with the Gobert steal. Like even if we "tanked" a year earlier would we have really done any better in that draft? Probably not.

 

[Joe Bagadonuts]

I am glad he was traded, I have never liked Kanter. I did not want him and never thought he was good enough to start and wanted him traded long before it happened. I am glad he is not on the team.

With that said we got a bad trade in terms of his value on the open market. At least 2 teams were willing to pay max for him that off season. That means teams would have traded more than a late 1st round pick and filler contracts.

Just because you are okay with what we got "addition by subtraction" does not mean we could not have gotten more or that it was a good trade.

Should have traded him earlier and we could have gotten more for him. Jazz thought the players we got might be better but they are not.

I think you are overlooking the big picture. I believe that Portland made the max offer because they knew OKC had to match. They were simply putting the hurt on a rival. OKC matched because they had to if they wanted any hope of keeping Durrant. Kanter was in the fortunate position of being their only real option.

It seems crazy that some people think the Jazz should have gotten more in this trade. If more was available don't you think they would have taken it?

 

[MDAV28]

The Thunder were "proactive" when they traded Jeff Green and Nenad Kristic for Kendrick Perkins, Nazr Mohammed, and Nate Robinson and ate up all their cap flexibility they needed to resign James Harden.

 

[framer]

I think you are overlooking the big picture. I believe that Portland made the max offer because they knew OKC had to match. They were simply putting the hurt on a rival. OKC matched because they had to if they wanted any hope of keeping Durrant. Kanter was in the fortunate position of being their only real option.

It seems crazy that some people think the Jazz should have gotten more in this trade. If more was available don't you think they would have taken it?

"Dennis, Milwaukee is on the line, they want to give us Middleton in exchange for the right to overpay Enes Kanter. Sounds like a good deal. Should I tell them it's a go?"

"Hell no. Our goal here is to piss off some dudes on an internet fan board. Part of that includes rejecting deal after deal that would improve our team AND give us financial flexibility. Look even if I screw this up and get fired, I can look over and know that I screwed that GVC guy. That should be enough for me. That should be enough for us all. . ."

 

[Joe Bagadonuts]

"Dennis, Milwaukee is on the line, they want to give us Middleton in exchange for the right to overpay Enes Kanter. Sounds like a good deal. Should I tell them it's a go?"

"Hell no. Our goal here is to piss off some dudes on an internet fan board. Part of that includes rejecting deal after deal that would improve our team AND give us financial flexibility. Look even if I screw this up and get fired, I can look over and know that I screwed that GVC guy. That should be enough for me. That should be enough for us all. . ."

Damn. DL is going to be very embarrassed that this transcript came out.

 

[GVC]

Some serious reading comprehension issues in this thread. Oh well.

 

[MDAV28]

Some serious reading comprehension issues in this thread. Oh well.

I get what you're saying. We both think they couldn't have gotten a better offer at the deadline, so you are saying we should have traded him earlier. Really easy to say in hindsight, I just don't necessarily think it was a bad idea to continue the Kanter project with a guy like Quin. Obviously it didn't work but at I can see the reasoning for TRYING to get your #3 overall pick to figure it out with a new coach that specializes in player development.

 

[Thee Idiotic Minivan K]

For all of his warts, Kanter is still an actual NBA player. If he didn't have an attitude problem, I'd take him over Booker every single day (at a much lower contract of course).

That's dumb!! That's like saying DL dropped the ball because Kanter would be good if he didn't have those flaws. Facts are we win less with Kanter then without. What are wins worth?? Worth taking a bag of chips I would assume

I totally agree with GVC - DL dropped the ball big time dealing with Kanter's case.
What I don't understand is why people call Kanter's contract "albatros". With salary cap blowing up in two years his contract will be very reasonable for a young big man capable of 20-10 on any given night even with no defense.Guys like that still at premium in the NBA.

Paying someone 17 million a year to lose u games and play defenseless 17 mins per game is ridiculously bad no matter the state of the salary cap. How quickly people forget how much better our record is without Kanter.

I find it strange that some here criticize DL for what he got in return for Kanter like they were a fly on the wall for those meetings and know what other teams offered.

NEWS FLASH!!!!! You have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[GVC]

I get what you're saying. We both think they couldn't have gotten a better offer at the deadline, so you are saying we should have traded him earlier. Really easy to say in hindsight, I just don't necessarily think it was a bad idea to continue the Kanter project with a guy like Quin. Obviously it didn't work but at I can see the reasoning for TRYING to get your #3 overall pick to figure it out with a new coach that specializes in player development.

And, as I've said, that's reasonable in isolation (and arguably reasonable otherwise). Looking at the bigger picture, which includes the wasted 2012/13 season (Al and Paul), the Kanter trade, and the complete in-season inaction and underwhelming free agency (when the Jazz are supposed to be trying to compete), it's troubling. I don't think what DL has done with the assets he inherited in 2012 is all that laudable.

Except the fact that the team is not a dead-end team anymore and could have a top 5 two way SF, PF, and C mixed with 2 guards who can flat out score and an great PG prospect. Also you do realize the Jazz still ended with a top 10 pick in 2013 and had one of the most successful drafts in that crappy class with the Gobert steal. Like even if we "tanked" a year earlier would we have really done any better in that draft? Probably not.

I didn't say they were a dead-end team anymore. I also can't accept the argument that the Jazz were better off with worse draft picks. DL could have more easily made the moves he made or made different ones.

The Thunder were "proactive" when they traded Jeff Green and Nenad Kristic for Kendrick Perkins, Nazr Mohammed, and Nate Robinson and ate up all their cap flexibility they needed to resign James Harden.

I'm not advocating making moves just to make moves, or making bad moves. I'm pointing out what I see as missed opportunities, and a mixed record in handling/maximizing assets.


I started watching the Jazz in 2003, and saw KOC do more with less. He arguably did it twice. My preference is for a GM like Daryl Morey or KOC (c. 2003-2012 anyway), who's always trying to add talent to improve the team. Whenever people point to the Thunder or Spurs, and talk about tanking or being patient, all I see are the Kings, the T-Wolves, the 76ers. The Jazz don't have a KD or Tim Duncan; they can't let valuable opportunities go to waste.