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Another shooting... California Disability Centre

carolinajazz said:
Possibly/probably not......but who can you trust? USA Government and ALL people have to be suspicious of ANY Muslim right now! Would you board a plane with one of them on it? People are scared stiff right now to even enter a Mall or a Walmart's!
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By this logic they must also be wary of its own citizens. Especially American males. Should we start following them as we do Muslim Americans?
 
carolinajazz said:
Possibly/probably not......but who can you trust? USA Government and ALL people have to be suspicious of ANY Muslim right now! Would you board a plane with one of them on it? People are scared stiff right now to even enter a Mall or a Walmart's!
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I'm not even slightly scared. And I'd gladly get on a plane with "one of them." Hell, I served in the U.S. Navy with many muslims, a few of which I worked with directly on a nuclear powered aircraft carrier.

But you're also afraid of the boogeyman, so it doesn't surprise me that you're scared of muslims.
 
Gameface said:
I'm not even slightly scared. And I'd gladly get on a plane with "one of them." Hell, I served in the U.S. Navy with many muslims, a few of which I worked with directly on a nuclear powered aircraft carrier.

But you're also afraid of the boogeyman, so it doesn't surprise me that you're scared of muslims.
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My best friend is from Kuwait and Muslim. I could call him any time about anything and he would show up at my place. I'd trust him to watch over my family.

I would get on a plane with a Muslim. I am in more danger from my non mulsims and I deal with them willingly in public every day.
 
Stoked said:
That still requires quite a lot to accomplish.

They'd have to pass an amendment on the 2nd amendment or a constitutional convention (this one is a VERY bad idea IMO) and overturn he 2nd amendment.

Then they would need to draft up laws out lawing the specific firearms you documented. Their import, sale and manufacture would also need to be outlawed and the unsold stock confiscated. I'd think reimbursement to said companies would be necessary.

Then slowly over time (decades) choke off the number of weapons.

But I still think this leads to revolt. I see to many gun owners saying no and defying this order and law.

Either way I think this leads to large amounts of revolt.
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Whether the 2nd amendment declares individual or collective right has always been hotly debated.

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
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https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/second_amendment

Just get SCOTUS to declare it a collective right and write up rules and regulations for militia.
 
Stoked said:
To me this is simply a gun ban. Weeding out bad guns over a couple decades.

We just have different views on what confiscation means and how it would play out. I do think a ban is 1,000 times more likely than gun confiscation.

Either way I think it leads to rebellion. The south, plains and mountain west would be inflamed over even a gun ban. ID, AZ, UT, MT, WY, ND, SD, TX, AR, OK, NE, KS, MO, AR, MS, TN, KY, AL, GA, LA, SC and WV would go nuts over that. Possibly other states would have real problems as well. Like AK, IA, ME, CA, IN and OH.
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If it's the right thing to do, who gives a **** if people go nuts. Same thing happened with slavery, and it was still the right decision to fight it.
 
dalamon said:
If it's the right thing to do, who gives a **** if people go nuts. Same thing happened with slavery, and it was still the right decision to fight it.
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This attitude is what gets **** started. Do you realize how dangerous that kind of talk is?
 
ElRoach0 said:
Whether the 2nd amendment declares individual or collective right has always been hotly debated.



https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/second_amendment

Just get SCOTUS to declare it a collective right and write up rules and regulations for militia.
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You've got it wrong bud, here's what some Founding Fathers gotta say about that, and they aren't suspicious of being "naive", precisely:

The Founding Fathers on the Second Amendment

"I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
George Mason
Co-author of the Second Amendment
during Virginia's Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788

"A militia, when properly formed, are in fact the people themselves …"
Richard Henry Lee
writing in Letters from the Federal Farmer to the Republic, Letter XVIII, May, 1788.

"The people are not to be disarmed of their weapons. They are left in full posession of them."
Zachariah Johnson
Elliot's Debates, vol. 3 "The Debates in the Several State Conventions on the Adoption of the Federal Constitution."

"… the people are confirmed by the next article in their right to keep and bear their private arms"
Philadelphia Federal Gazette
June 18, 1789, Pg. 2, Col. 2
Article on the Bill of Rights

"And that the said Constitution be never construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the Press, or the rights of Conscience; or to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms; …"
Samuel Adams
quoted in the Philadelphia Independent Gazetteer, August 20, 1789, "Propositions submitted to the Convention of this State"
The Founding Fathers on Arms

"Firearms stand next in importance to the constitution itself. They are the American people's liberty teeth and keystone under independence … from the hour the Pilgrims landed to the present day, events, occurences and tendencies prove that to ensure peace security and happiness, the rifle and pistol are equally indispensable … the very atmosphere of firearms anywhere restrains evil interference — they deserve a place of honor with all that's good."
George Washington
First President of the United States

"The supposed quietude of a good man allures the ruffian; while on the other hand arms, like laws, discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as property. The same balance would be preserved were all the world destitute of arms, for all would be alike; but since some will not, others dare not lay them aside … Horrid mischief would ensue were the law-abiding deprived of the use of them."
Thomas Paine

"To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them."
Richard Henry Lee
American Statesman, 1788

"The great object is that every man be armed." and "Everyone who is able may have a gun."
Patrick Henry
American Patriot

"Are we at last brought to such humiliating and debasing degradation, that we cannot be trusted with arms for our defense? Where is the difference between having our arms in possession and under our direction and having them under the management of Congress? If our defense be the real object of having those arms, in whose hands can they be trusted with more propriety, or equal safety to us, as in our own hands?"
Patrick Henry
American Patriot

"Those who hammer their guns into plowshares will plow for those who do not."
Thomas Jefferson
Third President of the United States

"The constitutions of most of our States assert that all power is inherent in the people; that … it is their right and duty to be at all times armed; … "
Thomas Jefferson
letter to Justice John Cartwright, June 5, 1824. ME 16:45.

"The best we can help for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed."
Alexander Hamilton
The Federalist Papers at 184-8



Stop pissing on the Constitution please. It's a good document.
 
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Jamezz said:
You've got it wrong bud, here's what some Founding Fathers gotta say about that, and they aren't suspicious of being "naive", precisely:

The Founding Fathers on the Second Amendment

"I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
George Mason
Co-author of the Second Amendment
during Virginia's Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788

"A militia, when properly formed, are in fact the people themselves …"
Richard Henry Lee
writing in Letters from the Federal Farmer to the Republic, Letter XVIII, May, 1788.

"The people are not to be disarmed of their weapons. They are left in full posession of them."
Zachariah Johnson
Elliot's Debates, vol. 3 "The Debates in the Several State Conventions on the Adoption of the Federal Constitution."

"… the people are confirmed by the next article in their right to keep and bear their private arms"
Philadelphia Federal Gazette
June 18, 1789, Pg. 2, Col. 2
Article on the Bill of Rights

"And that the said Constitution be never construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the Press, or the rights of Conscience; or to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms; …"
Samuel Adams
quoted in the Philadelphia Independent Gazetteer, August 20, 1789, "Propositions submitted to the Convention of this State"
The Founding Fathers on Arms

"Firearms stand next in importance to the constitution itself. They are the American people's liberty teeth and keystone under independence … from the hour the Pilgrims landed to the present day, events, occurences and tendencies prove that to ensure peace security and happiness, the rifle and pistol are equally indispensable … the very atmosphere of firearms anywhere restrains evil interference — they deserve a place of honor with all that's good."
George Washington
First President of the United States

"The supposed quietude of a good man allures the ruffian; while on the other hand arms, like laws, discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as property. The same balance would be preserved were all the world destitute of arms, for all would be alike; but since some will not, others dare not lay them aside … Horrid mischief would ensue were the law-abiding deprived of the use of them."
Thomas Paine

"To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them."
Richard Henry Lee
American Statesman, 1788

"The great object is that every man be armed." and "Everyone who is able may have a gun."
Patrick Henry
American Patriot

"Are we at last brought to such humiliating and debasing degradation, that we cannot be trusted with arms for our defense? Where is the difference between having our arms in possession and under our direction and having them under the management of Congress? If our defense be the real object of having those arms, in whose hands can they be trusted with more propriety, or equal safety to us, as in our own hands?"
Patrick Henry
American Patriot

"Those who hammer their guns into plowshares will plow for those who do not."
Thomas Jefferson
Third President of the United States

"The constitutions of most of our States assert that all power is inherent in the people; that … it is their right and duty to be at all times armed; … "
Thomas Jefferson
letter to Justice John Cartwright, June 5, 1824. ME 16:45.

"The best we can help for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed."
Alexander Hamilton
The Federalist Papers at 184-8



Stop pissing on the Constitution please. It's a good document.
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I'll piss on your mothers grave if I feel like it, tyvm. Our founding fathers lived in a different world, and a different time. And even in that time without random mass shootings for little to no reason, even they pondered whether they had the right to make law for further generation.
 
ElRoach0 said:
I'll piss on your mothers grave if I feel like it, tyvm. Our founding fathers lived in a different world, and a different time. And even in that time without random mass shootings for little to no reason, even they pondered whether they had the right to make law for further generation.
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Classy.
 
Gameface said:
I'm not even slightly scared. And I'd gladly get on a plane with "one of them." Hell, I served in the U.S. Navy with many muslims, a few of which I worked with directly on a nuclear powered aircraft carrier.

But you're also afraid of the boogeyman, so it doesn't surprise me that you're scared of muslims.
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I didn't say I WAS afraid of Muslims! I'm just reporting what many people are saying and thinking since the recent shootings. However, if I were to get on a plane and they boarded 4 or 5 Muslim men and women with the religious garb....I might give up my seat for the next flight!
 
carolinajazz said:
I didn't say I WAS afraid of Muslims! I'm just reporting what many people are saying and thinking since the recent shootings. However, if I were to get on a plane and they boarded 4 or 5 Muslim men and women with the religious garb....I might give up my seat for the next flight!
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I would gladly take your seat.
 
An Australian Case Study

https://www.vox.com/2015/10/3/9444417/gun-violence-united-states-america

In 1996, a 28-year-old man walked into a cafe in Port Arthur, Australia, ate lunch, pulled a semi-automatic rifle out of his bag, and opened fire on the crowd, killing 35 people and wounding 23 more. It was the worst mass shooting in Australia's history.

Australian lawmakers responded with new legislation that, among other provisions, banned certain types of firearms, such as automatic and semi-automatic rifles and shotguns. The Australian government confiscated 650,000 of these guns through a gun buyback program, in which it purchased firearms from gun owners. It established a registry of all guns owned in the country and required a permit for all new firearm purchases. (This is much further than bills typically proposed in the US, which almost never make a serious attempt to immediately reduce the number of guns in the country.)

The result: Australia's firearm homicide rate dropped by about 42 percent in the seven years after the law passed, and its firearm suicide rate fell by 57 percent, according to one review of the evidence by Harvard researchers.

Now, it's difficult to know for sure how much of the drop in homicides and suicides was caused specifically by the gun buyback program. Australia's gun deaths, for one, were already declining before the law passed. But Harvard's David Hemenway and Mary Vriniotis argue that the gun buyback program very likely played a role: "First, the drop in firearm deaths was largest among the type of firearms most affected by the buyback. Second, firearm deaths in states with higher buyback rates per capita fell proportionately more than in states with lower buyback rates."

One study of the program, by Australian researchers, found that buying back 3,500 guns per 100,000 people correlated with up to a 50 percent drop in firearm homicides, and a 74 percent drop in gun suicides. As Vox's Dylan Matthews noted, the drop in homicides wasn't statistically significant. But the drop in suicides most definitely was — and the results are striking.

One other fact, noted by Hemenway and Vriniotis in 2011: "While 13 gun massacres (the killing of 4 or more people at one time) occurred in Australia in the 18 years before the [Australia gun control law], resulting in more than one hundred deaths, in the 14 following years (and up to the present), there were no gun massacres."
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firearm%20suicides%20australia.jpg


GunBuybacksFig1.png
 
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