BYU - it's time come out of the dark ages.

[green]

The honor code is why I would not recommend my children to go to BYU. Although he never had any issues in his 10+ years at BYU, my dad encouraged me to not attend because of it.

This story is sickening. As long as the honor code is at BYU, I will never endorse my daughter going there. Now we know why BYU has so few sexual assaults: if you are a girl and are assaulted, we will kick you out. I mean, you totally deserved it...

https://www.sltrib.com/news/3770084-155/byu-students-say-victims-of-sexual?fullpage=1

 

[Gameface]

And there are several people commenting on that article that are saying that "just because a girl is sexually assaulted doesn't mean she's not responsible for her honor code violations."

The biggest problem is that the title IX personnel who investigate the sexual assault are alerting those who enforce the honor code so that they can investigate the victim. It would be simple enough for BYU to put a wall between those two groups. Sexual assault is handled confidentially and independently. Sexual assault is a very serious crime and honor code violations are not.

There was a similar situation in the Navy. Overseas you have guidelines for what you can do when on shore leave (in the Navy it's called "overseas liberty" not "shore leave"). Stuff like having a curfew, even if you've been approved for overnight liberty, men and women cannot share a hotel room or be in each other's hotel rooms after curfew. So if someone reports a sexual assault then they are often reporting themselves for violating liberty policy. It can be considerably worse if the person who was assaulted is of significantly higher rank than the assailant, because now they are fraternizing in addition to the liberty violations and being of higher rank they are considered more responsible for the liberty violations including the violations of the junior sailors.

So anyway, after tailhook the Navy made progress but at least when I was in they still had a pretty long way to go.

 

[Boris]

And there are several people commenting on that article that are saying that "just because a girl is sexually assaulted doesn't mean she's not responsible for her honor code violations."

The biggest problem is that the title IX personnel who investigate the sexual assault are alerting those who enforce the honor code so that they can investigate the victim. It would be simple enough for BYU to put a wall between those two groups. Sexual assault is handled confidentially and independently. Sexual assault is a very serious crime and honor code violations are not.

There was a similar situation in the Navy. Overseas you have guidelines for what you can do when on shore leave (in the Navy it's called "overseas liberty" not "shore leave"). Stuff like having a curfew, even if you've been approved for overnight liberty, men and women cannot share a hotel room or be in each other's hotel rooms after curfew. So if someone reports a sexual assault then they are often reporting themselves for violating liberty policy. It can be considerably worse if the person who was assaulted is of significantly higher rank than the assailant, because now they are fraternizing in addition to the liberty violations and being of higher rank they are considered more responsible for the liberty violations including the violations of the junior sailors.

So anyway, after tailhook the Navy made progress but at least when I was in they still had a pretty long way to go.

I have seen companies cure somewhat similar issues by creating a culture of encouragement with no recourse policies. So instead of being a snitch everyone is encouraged to politely turn their friends in. It works so well that safety in large industry is often too over the top. Like when you see those questar trucks at the Apallo Burger putting safety cones around their trucks so they can go inside for a burger.

 

[Boris]

Another example is say I have 3-4 beers and witness a heinous crime or accident on my drive home. Should I take a DUI for being a good samaritan or should I keep driving home? I think people in that situation should be granted immunity.

 

[green]

The honor code needs to be done away with. It's moronic. It's in Christ-like. It's not agency.

If you son, take it up with God and your bishop (if needed).

The honor code is irrelevant.

 

[♪alt13]

I still think it's insane for universities to be investigating sex crimes. Maybe there continues to be so many rapes on campuses because of a system that encourages young women to report to phony police and work through an arbitrator? They should offer services to help young women report to the actual police, obtain a restraining order, and provide counseling services. They should not pretend to be exercising justice.

 

[Siro]

I still think it's insane for universities to be investigating sex crimes. Maybe there continues to be so many rapes on campuses because of a system that encourages young women to report to phony police and work through an arbitrator? They should offer services to help young women report to the actual police, obtain a restraining order, and provide counseling services. They should not pretend to be exercising justice.

Provo police also casually reports to the honor code office like it's a normal thing to do. Back when I was going to BYU, a friend of mine was smoking weed at an off-campus BYU-approved apartment complex, and the neighbors (also students) smelled it and called the cops. The cops came knocking, but since there was no weed in sight, and they had no warrant, they got nowhere. The next day, my friend was called to the honor code office to discuss his violation.

 

[♪alt13]

Provo police also casually reports to the honor code office like it's a normal thing to do. Back when I was going to BYU, a friend of mine was smoking weed at an off-campus BYU-approved apartment complex, and the neighbors (also students) smelled it and called the cops. The cops came knocking, but since there was no weed in sight, and they had no warrant, they got nowhere. The next day, my friend was called to the honor code office to discuss his violation.

Can you imagine if they did this at your workplace? Srsly, why should BYU be treated differently than say Novell? I'm pretty sure the Provo PD wouldn't walk into Novell and tell them that they suspect one of their employees was smoking a joint on the golf course last week.

 

[Siro]

Can you imagine if they did this at your workplace? Srsly, why should BYU be treated differently than say Novell? I'm pretty sure the Provo PD wouldn't walk into Novell and tell them that they suspect one of their employees was smoking a joint on the golf course last week.

What amazes me is that the police have never been sued over this. As far as I know.

 

[JimLes]

BYU is batsh*t crazy like anything having to do with religion, but what I don't understand is why people who disagree with the Honour Code go there? I mean, if you're not as batsh*t crazy as them, wouldn't you go to a normal, secular school?

 

[Gameface]

BYU is batsh*t crazy like anything having to do with religion, but what I don't understand is why people who disagree with the Honour Code go there? I mean, if you're not as batsh*t crazy as them, wouldn't you go to a normal, secular school?

Because you get LDS brownie points.

Pressure from family.

There is a network of LDS business people and entrepreneurs that look very favorably upon a BYU grad.

Maybe you believed firmly in the honor code when you started but then you started seeing the wider world and got a little interested in what it had to offer.

 

[JimLes]

Because you get LDS brownie points.

Pressure from family.

There is a network of LDS business people and entrepreneurs that look very favorably upon a BYU grad.

Maybe you believed firmly in the honor code when you started but then you started seeing the wider world and got a little interested in what it had to offer.

Yeah, I'm not sure you can complain about an honour code when it's opportunism on your part.

 

[Gameface]

Yeah, I'm not sure you can complain about an honour code when it's opportunism on your part.

If there's one thing I know it's that people can always complain.

 

[green]

BYU is batsh*t crazy like anything having to do with religion, but what I don't understand is why people who disagree with the Honour Code go there? I mean, if you're not as batsh*t crazy as them, wouldn't you go to a normal, secular school?

I'm not sure what this has to do with kicking a girl out of school after she was raped.

 

[green]

Also, Spencer Hadley wasn't kicked out of school for breaking the honor code but she was for two years?

The honor code is a travesty and should be gone yesterday. It's pathetic.

Like I said above, how anyone could send their daughter to a place where she could be sexually assaulted then kicked out of school for going to the authorities...

Disgusting. Absolutely disgusting.

 

[colton]

I'm not sure what this has to do with kicking a girl out of school after she was raped.

To be precise though, she was kicked out for doing drugs, not because she was raped. (Yes, I know you said "after" rather than "because", but just trying to clarify for those who didn't read the article.)

That being said, I do get the point of the article, which is that if someone is raped while doing stuff that is against the Honor Code, it makes it less likely that the person will report the rape. But, for what it's worth, my experience as a faculty member is that students rarely if ever get kicked out for a first Honor Code violation... and I would guess that most students also are aware of that. And, most rapes probably do NOT occur in situations that involve stuff that's against the Honor Code. So I wonder how many people really are discouraged by the Honor Code from reporting rapes that occur? I'd guess it's probably a very small fraction. Unfortunately the article doesn't really shed any light on that.

 

[JFFR]

[MENTION=14]colton[/MENTION] - people aren't worried about precision or honesty. They just look for any excuse to malign BYU.

 

[green]

Colton - are you implying that it is her fault for being raped? That had she not been breaking the honor code she would not have been raped?

I don't think you would say that, but I am just clarifying.

The article specifically states that she didn't want to report it because she was worried that she would get kicked out.

That's the problem.

Would you rather a girl get raped and not report it for fear of retribution from the honor code office?

She told the police that she was on acid and they took no further action. BYU should do the same.

Getting rid of sexual abuse is more important than someone getting high on the weekend.

The honor code is preventing girls from reporting rapes at BYU. Is that not a problem?

Isn't being raped punishment enough for taking acid? Does BYU really need to drag this girl through the mud further? Wouldn't you rather have the rape reported to the man is caught so he does not rape again?

It is it better to have these girls live in fear and never report the rape?

How could you send your daughter to a place where if a girl stays out past 12, then is raped but told that she broke the honor code and she will be kicked out of school so she keeps it to herself?

 

[green]

[MENTION=14]colton[/MENTION] - people aren't worried about precision or honesty. They just look for any excuse to malign BYU.

What? So, you are ok with the culture of fear at BYU that allows a rapist to free?

I believe you are better than that.

 

[colton]

Colton - are you implying that it is her fault for being raped? That had she not been breaking the honor code she would not have been raped?

No, of course not.

The article specifically states that she didn't want to report it because she was worried that she would get kicked out.

That's the problem.

Yes, and that's how I summarized it in my post. It's an issue worth considering. But are many rapes actually going unreported? That's where my skepticism kicked in.

How could you send your daughter to a place where if a girl stays out past 12, then is raped but told that she broke the honor code and she will be kicked out of school so she keeps it to herself?

Oh, please. Kids don't get kicked out of BYU for staying out past 12.

And for what it's worth, I am currently sending my daughter to BYU. And I have far fewer qualms about her safety than if she were at just about any other university in the county.