BYU - it's time come out of the dark ages.

[green]

I would not and it it's too bad you can't see past sports.

90% of rapes in Provo go unreported. At BYU, girls who are sexually assaulted are investigated for honor code violations when many never violated the honor code.

And you brush it off like its no big deal.

My sister was raped when she was 14. It has destroyed her life.

This American Life did a podcast about a girl who was raped, no one believed her and evidence was found two years later that she was raped by someone who raped at least 4 girls afterwards.

https://m.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/581/anatomy-of-doubt

To make light of this is sickening.

To create a culture where a woman who is sexually assaulted is afraid to come forward is disgusting.

Then to know that the person who assaulted her is still on the loose because of that environment.

Disgusting.

This is not a BYU vs Utah thing. This is reality. Get over that and take off your blue goggles.

 

[fishonjazz]

If this really has nothing to do with byu and you are simply sincerely concerned about sexual assault victims then I apologize... And look forward to your upcoming threads about how you would never let your daughters attend spring break in Cancun, ft Lauderdale, lake havasu, etc due to all the girls/women being fed liquor and drugs to the point of unconsciousness and then being raped. I await your upcoming thread about the sex slave trade and women being bought and sold. I will watch for your thread about the Catholic church molesting young boys and see your comments about how you would never let your son into a Catholic church due to the culture of fear that those poor boys are betting subjected to.
There are tons and tons of articles online about sexual assault that you could choose to discuss, but this is the one you chose.

And honestly that's ok but when you say things like I would never let my daughter go to school there and byu has a culture of fear and byu let's rapists go free.... You make it sound like byu is a horrible school where no one is safe as it's super dangerous. It's actually a highly regarded educational school that is safer than most and probably has less sexual assaults taking place on its campus than most schools due the fact that there is less drinking and drug use occurring there. More of their students are married with kids than most schools.

I feel that my daughter would be less likely to be raped at byu than a party school like az state or usc. And it's fine if you disagree but you always try to paint byu in the worst possible light that you can.

Girls/women being afraid to report sexual assaults due to worries of honor code violation discipline is incredibly wrong and definitely needs to change. Leave it at that and we can totally agree.
I hate the honor code btw.

 

[colton]

https://m.deseretnews.com/article/515039389/90-of-Provo-rapes-not-reported-to-police.html?pg=all

PROVO — More than 90 percent of rapes in the city go unreported, according to the lead rape investigator for the BYU Police Department.

Sent from my HTC6535LVW using JazzFanz mobile app

OK, let's put on our thinking caps. Where does this 90% number come from? Did the police officer say that anyone had done surveys? No. Did he give any references at all for this number? Is this 90% number an established fact? No. Was he just expressing an opinion, presumably well-grounded? Yes.

So where did this 90% number come from? Well, if you google something like this, https://www.google.com/search?q=what+fraction+of+rapes+go+unreported+at+colleges&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8, you will see numbers ranging from 80-95%. So the police officer very likely just picked a round number in the middle of that range, and went with 90%. In other words, he's saying that BYU/Provo is no different than other communities.

Is that a shocking number? Yes. Is that a horrible number? Yes, of course. Should we be taking steps to lower that number? Absolutely.

But does this number have anything to do with BYU or Provo being horrible places which foster a rape culture? Absolutely not.

 

[colton]

There's a culture of ignoring and downplaying sexual assault accusations at every single university in North America.

Bingo.

 

[colton]

BYU fans make jokes when reality is much worse. This isn't a joke at all. This isn't me hating BYU. This is a problem.

Your pathological hatred of all things BYU is making you irrational. Does BYU have issues? Sure. Can it be improved? Sure. But is BYU the place you are describing? Not at all.

So yes, green. This is completely you hating BYU. Did any BYU fans make jokes? Not that I read, I'm not even sure where that came from. Why did you claim that? Because of your pathological irrational hatred of BYU.

Look: about 90% of rapes at the U of Utah ALSO go unreported: https://dailyutahchronicle.com/2006/12/01/rape-is-a-problem-for-everyone. Why aren't you mentioning that at all? Because of your pathological irrational hatred of BYU.

 

[colton]

Where is the drugs and alcohol here Colton?

I'm shocked that people are so willing to look the other way on this. It's disgusting.

Did I say drugs and alcohol are ALWAYS involved? Of course not. Why are you implying that I did? Because of your pathological irrational hatred of BYU.

Are you denying that drugs and alcohol are often a factor in rapes? If so, do a search like this: https://www.google.com/search?q=drugs+and+alcohol+rape and read articles like this: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...-most-common-drug-in-sexual-assaults/3285139/

Is anyone in this thread advocating that we look the other way? Of course not. Why are you implying that we are? Because of your pathological irrational hatred of BYU.

 

[colton]

"Emily" was on a date in July 2015 with a student from another school when he began fondling her as she fought back and told him to stop, she said. According to a rape charge pending in 4th District Court, police wrote that they also found bite marks on Emily's body.

Emily asked to use a pseudonym because her attacker has threatened her.

In January, the man followed Emily to a campus building where she works as a janitor and hid in a bathroom; he jumped out, pinned her to a wall and threatened to kill her, according to a subsequent kidnapping and witness retaliation charge.

BYU police do not refer criminal investigations to the Honor Code Office, said Lt. Arnold Lemmon.

"We're not out there digging up dirt on students and shipping it to the Honor Code Office," he said.

But officers are required to notify victims of their options under Title IX. The detective over Emily's second attack told her that the Title IX office could connect her to services.

Instead, Emily said, the office opened an Honor Code investigation into her conduct.

"[Westerberg] said ... that's part of the policy: Any time a sexual assault is reported, they have to send it to the Honor Code Office," Emily recalled. "She said that her hands were tied by the policy. ... I asked her, 'I don't understand what you're saying.' She said, 'We have an Honor Code policy at BYU and we don't apologize for that.'

"That killed me, because I've never broken the Honor Code, ever, and here it was being used to say it was my fault, what had happened to me," Emily said.

You guys should really read the article before posting.

The way BYU treated this woman is appalling.

*IF* that's true, then certainly, changes should be made. But why do you AUTOMATICALLY believe an unsubstantiated anti-BYU report by someone not using her real name, without even pausing to consider whether it might not be true? Because of your pathological irrational hatred of BYU.

Did the article even bother contacting BYU's Title IX office to see if that's in fact their policy? Nope.

And even if Emily's account is 100% factual, would she have gotten kicked out? There's absolutely no evidence that she would have. But do you bother to think about that? No.

 

[colton]

when victims of sexual violence at BYU report their attack, they potentially put their academic future at risk. If you’ve been raped while in your boyfriend’s bedroom, you’re in trouble. If you were drinking at a party and were raped, you’re in trouble. If you were fondling a partner who then raped you, you’re in trouble. There are many more Honor Code rules which may apply. The trouble is both ecclesiastical and academic. The Honor Code Office will report to and coordinate with the bishop of the student. A woman who has been sexually assaulted may find herself penalized, suspended, even expelled for the circumstances of her attack.
The problems with this approach are clear. These rules discourage the reporting of sexual abuse and shield the perpetrators. Victims are shamed into silence. In their very moment of spiritual and physical pain, the Honor Code serves to heap additional guilt upon their heads. They are perhaps left with the implication that they deserved their attack. And if nothing is reported, the greater sin of sexual violence goes unpunished. The veneer of righteousness presented by the Honor Code is preserved and the sepulchre is kept white.
I would welcome further explanation from BYU administration. I hope that I am wrong. I attended BYU, love BYU and support its aims. But to say that this approach is not the right one is an understatement. It would be a sinful, repugnant way to approach victims of sexual abuse. I call upon BYU to provide some explanation and to shield victims in their reporting and healing.

https://bycommonconsent.com/2016/04/09/the-least-degree-of-allowance/

Nice how you removed the first five words of the quote there: "If this recounting is accurate,". Why did you do that? Because of your pathological irrational hatred of BYU.

 

[colton]

This isn't a BYU vs Utah thing. This is about a culture of fear that has lead to over 90% of rapes not being reported. That means that 9 out of 10 guys who sexually assault women go free in Utah County.

As I pointed out, this is the statistic NATIONWIDE, including at the U of U. There's no evidence that I could find that BYU or Utah County is better or worse than the national statistic.

So yes, the reason why you are posting these things here is because of your pathological irrational hatred of BYU.

Go ahead, prove me wrong. Stop focusing your hatred on BYU. Take up a discussion of what's wrong at the U of U, why 90% of rapes go unreported there, and how that can be fixed. Be just as outraged about the U.

We can be better than that.

Absolutely.

 

[JazzGal]

The issue is raised here against BYU because of the additional problem of the Honor Code affecting reporting. Whether you like or dislike BYU, it is still a story and worth discussing.

The "unreported" rape numbers come from anonymous surveys and from rape crisis centers and other such places. Even if women seek treatment, they still seldom report to the police.

I have been appalled to discover that, when having serious discussions with a group of women, that so many have been sexually assaulted. I found out in the past few years that one of my closest friends for the past 35 years had been raped early in our friendship, and she never told me or really anyone but her Bishop. She was disfellowshipped because she had been alone in his apartment making out. She believed for many, many years that she was to blame.

Rape is awful and women have been treated horribly for years. Anything that makes the experience worse is reprehensible.

Sent from my HTC6535LVW using JazzFanz mobile app

 

[colton]

Look green I agree that the honor code sucks. I agree that there are some women that are not reporting rapes because they fear of being punished for honor code violations and that is wrong. But when you say things like byu has a culture of fear and byu let's rapists go free then you are making it sound like if I were to go to byu's campus tomorrow afternoon there would be scared women everywhere and rapists around every corner.

I wonder if you realize that there are tons of men that attend byu that don't even rape women. There are lots of women that attend byu that are not getting raped each day.

If you stumbled upon this article and it was about the university of Oregon you would have thought to yourself that what oregon was doing is wrong and you hope that they change their ways and then you would have moved on without making a thread about it.

I think this article gives you a great platform to bash byu and you are going to take every opportunity to do so. You will always flaunt any and every bad bit of press you can find about byu. That won't ever change.

This is absolutely correct.

green, how many times have you even visited BYU? How many days have you spent on its campus? How well do you know the university? From reading what you have written about BYU over the years, it's clear to me that you know practically nothing.

For what it's worth, I have spent nearly 13 years studying & working at BYU. That's very likely over 3000 days or 24,000 hours that I've spent on the BYU campus. I think I know BYU just a little better than you do. And there's nothing like the "culture of fear" that you describe. It's an incredibly safe campus. Is it perfect? No. But I've also spent 10 years as a student and faculty member at two other universities, and from first hand experience I can tell you that BYU's a great deal safer than either of them. And as I mentioned earlier, I'm currently even sending my own teen-aged daughter to BYU. But will you even consider that I know what I'm talking about? I doubt it.

 

[colton]

The issue is raised here against BYU because of the additional problem of the Honor Code affecting reporting. Whether you like or dislike BYU, it is still a story and worth discussing.

The "unreported" rape numbers come from anonymous surveys and from rape crisis centers and other such places. Even if women seek treatment, they still seldom report to the police.

I have been appalled to discover that, when having serious discussions with a group of women, that so many have been sexually assaulted. I found out in the past few years that one of my closest friends for the past 35 years had been raped early in our friendship, and she never told me or really anyone but her Bishop. She was disfellowshipped because she had been alone in his apartment making out. She believed for many, many years that she was to blame.

Rape is awful and women have been treated horribly for years. Anything that makes the experience worse is reprehensible.

Agree completely with everything here.

 

[7StraightIsGreat]

Some of the posts in this thread are appalling. Forget your allegiance in the Utah- BYU rivalry, if there is any truth to these reports, it's sickening, and to try and reason your way around it, or simply throw up your hands and say "Just another case of the haters coming after BYU" is straight up deplorable.

Many BYU fans love BYU because of what they represent. That door swings both ways. If the HC has become a way to punish female students that are sexually assaulted, or even unintentionally serves as a reason to stop young women from reporting those crimes, that should be enough for any decent person to declare that enough is enough and demand changes be made that help protect victims of sexual assault.

I'm embarrassed (yet not surprised) by some of the posters in this thread. Step out of the world of the rivalry and into the world of common sense, decency, and humanity.

 

[fishonjazz]

The issue is raised here against BYU because of the additional problem of the Honor Code affecting reporting. Whether you like or dislike BYU, it is still a story and worth discussing.

I agree and don't have a problem with this issue being discussed. I think it's wrong for byu to use the honor code against the victim.

I think some of us just have an issue with green trying to paint byu as a bad place that you shouldn't let your daughters attend due to the culture of fear at byu and the fact that byu allows rapists to go free.

I wish that my daughter would someday attend byu and graduate with a degree from byu. It's a very good school to attend as get a degree from. Lots of smart and successful people have gone to and currently go to byu.

 

[♪alt13]

This.

Let's say that greens culture of fear title at byu is true. I still believe that less women are getting raped at byu in the first place than almost all other schools.

It's hard to know the truth of that statement. If women are subject to the honor code based on evidence given reporting a rape then they have an incentive not to report. So, the sexual assault statistics are likely lower than they should be. By how much, we don't know.

We do know that rape victims have less security at BYU than at other schools. BYU should fix this and then perhaps they will prove your statement to be correct.

 

[fishonjazz]

Some of the posts in this thread are appalling. Forget your allegiance in the Utah- BYU rivalry, if there is any truth to these reports, it's sickening, and to try and reason your way around it, or simply throw up your hands and say "Just another case of the haters coming after BYU" is straight up deplorable.

Many BYU fans love BYU because of what they represent. That door swings both ways. If the HC has become a way to punish female students that are sexually assaulted, or even unintentionally serves as a reason to stop young women from reporting those crimes, that should be enough for any decent person to declare that enough is enough and demand changes be made that help protect victims of sexual assault.

I'm embarrassed (yet not surprised) by some of the posters in this thread. Step out of the world of the rivalry and into the world of common sense, decency, and humanity.

I think some of us just have an issue with green trying to paint byu as a bad place that you shouldn't let your daughters attend due to the culture of fear at byu and the fact that byu allows rapists to go free.

.

 

[fishonjazz]

It's hard to know the truth of that statement. If women are subject to the honor code based on evidence given reporting a rape then they have an incentive not to report. So, the sexual assault statistics are likely lower than they should be. By how much, we don't know.

We do know that rape victims have less security at BYU than at other schools. BYU should fix this and then perhaps they will prove your statement to be correct.

From what Colton and green posted women at byu and utah do not report rapes 9 out of 10 times. So even the rape numbers at the u of u wouldn't be accurate because the women that attend the u are also living at a school with a culture of fear apparently since they are also afraid to report when they are raped.


But I would be curious to know the average number of reported rapes at other schools vs at byu and see if they are more than 10 times higher at other schools or not. If they are then that would mean that less rapes are occurring at byu if greens assumptions that 9 of 10 women don't report strictly due to fear of honor code punishments.

 

[colton]

I still believe that less women are getting raped at byu in the first place than almost all other schools.

It's hard to know the truth of that statement. If women are subject to the honor code based on evidence given reporting a rape then they have an incentive not to report. So, the sexual assault statistics are likely lower than they should be. By how much, we don't know.

Correct. But as I pointed out in an earlier post, there's no evidence that it's lowered by much. This would only be a factor in rapes that occur in situations where the victim was engaging in activities which are against the Honor Code. Such as drugs, which was the situation for the girl mentioned in the article who was expelled. That's going to be a very low fraction of rapes, in my opinion. So yes--lower than they should be, by how much we don't know, but probably not by very much.

So I think fishonjazz's statement is completely correct. Even if BYU's rape statistics are slightly elevated because of this, the number of reported rapes are so low at BYU compared to most other universities that like fish, I still believe that fewer--FAR FEWER--women are getting raped at BYU than almost all other schools.

 

[Ron Mexico]

Sadly rape culture is rampant in our society and even worse on college campuses. Having lived most of my life in Provo and near BYU I have come to see and realize this school, despite its claims, is no different. Is it worse than other schools like Utah? No, I dont think so its the same. All schools need to step up and do something. The one difference is that BYU projects itself and claims to be a better place morally but is not doing that and is not doing things to make it better. The honor code does things to prevent rape from being reported. It should be changed to allow a very serious problem to be fixed, but I do agree that every school including the other schools in Utah also need to change policies to make their campuses safer for women.

Sexual abuse in Provo is swept under the rug and ignored all to often. Provo is a great place to live for many reasons and I enjoyed living there, even as a non-mormon. But this is one issue that needs to be talked about more there and something needs to be done about it. There is far too many people who are naive to the signs and want to pretend like it doesnt happen there, when in reality it happens a lot. Provo has low crime but this area is an exception to that low crime.

Just because BYU isnt worse than other campuses doesnt mean they have good policies in place and doesnt mean they shouldnt do something about it. It also doesnt mean that poor policies shouldnt be called out and brought to light. We should talk about it, we should fix it. We should talk about the poor policies in place at other schools and bring light to anything that is happening to make this rape culture continue.

Women should not fear reporting sexual assault.

 

[colton]

Some of the posts in this thread are appalling. Forget your allegiance in the Utah- BYU rivalry, if there is any truth to these reports, it's sickening, and to try and reason your way around it, or simply throw up your hands and say "Just another case of the haters coming after BYU" is straight up deplorable... I'm embarrassed (yet not surprised) by some of the posters in this thread. Step out of the world of the rivalry and into the world of common sense, decency, and humanity.

Where are you getting this? All of the BYU supporters in this thread have said that IF the reports are accurate, then BYU has mismanaged things and need to change their policies.