The Legacy of the Kobe Bryant Rape Case

[JazzGal]

https://thinkprogress.org/sports/2016/04/13/3768242/kope-bryant-rape-case-legacy/

True confession: I have almost forgotten about this, and I didn't think about it Wednesday night. At the time, I mentally shared in the victim blaming to a slight extent. I am ashamed.

The article has a few unpleasant details, so avoid if you will be bothered. (yes, I realize that isn't likely)

 

[Boris]

First OJ then Kobe. I am sick of star treatment by are justice system. She had sex and tried to commit suicide so she can't get taped?

 

[Gameface]

This is what Kobe said. It is an admission that he raped her.

Although I truly believe this encounter between us was consensual, I recognize now that she did not and does not view this incident the same way I did. After months of reviewing discovery, listening to her attorney, and even her testimony in person, I now understand how she feels that she did not consent to this encounter.

ncoloradojazz said recently that he's from Colorado and around there everyone knows the victim was some sort of no-good "woman of the night." He pointed out that charges were dropped and that we all just needed to respect Kobe and let it go.

**** that! Read the quote from Kobe. He admits to rape.

 

[Boris]

That is standard NBA or speak. I buy nothing into the rapists press release word speak

 

[Gameface]

That is standard NBA or speak. I buy nothing into the rapists press release word speak

Saying that you were convinced by the victim's statement that what they experienced was rape is NOT standard anything speak. That's saying that you went into a situation feeling entitled to use another person's body for your own sexual satisfaction regardless of that person's consent and to you that's not rape, but after hearing how the other person felt about being violated you can see why what happened to them was rape. But the SOB is so delusional he just chalks that up to a difference of opinion.

Let's just say that if the rapist agrees that the victim didn't consent, well, there's only one thing you can call that. It's called rape. That's what Kobe admitted to and why I have always responded to disgusting victim blaming by pointing out that my opinion was formed by what Kobe said. Not just the quote above, but by Kobe's graphic description of the sexual encounter as well.

Kobe is a rapist and should have been in prison.

 

[Boris]

Saying that you were convinced by the victim's statement that what they experienced was rape is NOT standard anything speak. That's saying that you went into a situation feeling entitled to use another person's body for your own sexual satisfaction regardless of that person's consent and to you that's not rape, but after hearing how the other person felt about being violated you can see why what happened to them was rape. But the SOB is so delusional he just chalks that up to a difference of opinion.

Let's just say that if the rapist agrees that the victim didn't consent, well, there's only one thing you can call that. It's called rape. That's what Kobe admitted to and why I have always responded to disgusting victim blaming by pointing out that my opinion was formed by what Kobe said. Not just the quote above, but by Kobe's graphic description of the sexual encounter as well.

Kobe is a rapist and should have been in prison.

You do not get it. Kobe Bryant is a famous gazillionaire. He has lawyers and a whole staff of PR people who told him what to say. You can believe he was being genuine but I do not. This does not change the facts that he raped that girl.

 

[GVC]

This is what Kobe said. It is an admission that he raped her.

I don't see that at all. He clearly states that he believes it was consensual.

 

[JazzGal]

I don't see that at all. He clearly states that he believes it was consensual.

But SHE didn't believe it. That's the point of rape. If someone isn't giving enthusiastic consent, it is rape. It doesn't matter if he feels entitled or doesn't believe that someone would actually mean NO.

I believed at the time that she may have initially consented, but she did not realize the violence that was going to be involved. And then he wouldn't stop. And that is rape.

Sent from my HTC6535LVW using JazzFanz mobile app

 

[GVC]

But SHE didn't believe it. That's the point of rape. If someone isn't giving enthusiastic consent, it is rape.

Define 'enthusiastic'. Also, keep in mind, the discussion about consent was a hell of a lot different in 2003 than it is now.

 

[JazzGal]

You can't tell? That's frightening.

Actively participating of her own choice.

And I get that sometimes there may be less active participation by a woman in a long term relationship who is just trying to make her partner happy. Yes and No are the clues there.

I realize that guys like sleeping with drunk girls because consent is easier to get. But if she is too drunk to participate and say Yes, then it is rape.

Sent from my HTC6535LVW using JazzFanz mobile app

 

[GVC]

Actively participating of her own choice.

That's still incredibly imprecise. Does consent end at the moment an individual stops actively participating? Is that always entirely clear in the heat of the moment? How much time does the offender have to recognize that there is no longer consent? Does the difference in public discourse about rape -- then v. now -- play no role?

You can't tell? That's frightening.

You can go **** yourself. I'm not saying Kobe was/is innocent. I just don't think what he said constitutes a confession. At the very least, more details about the case are needed to reach that conclusion.

 

[Gameface]

He said that he now knows that to her it wasn't consensual. Non-consensual sex is, by definition, rape. He admitted that when he listened to the evidence and listened to what she said that he understood that she hadn't consented. So, he was convinced by the evidence that the sex wasn't consensual.

If I close my eyes and start swinging my fists it's still called assault when I hit someone. Kobe didn't seek consent, he just took sex. Just because he didn't know and didn't care if she consented doesn't absolve him of the fact, that he admitted, that she did not consent.

 

[GVC]

He said that he now knows that to her it wasn't consensual. Non-consensual sex is, by definition, rape. He admitted that when he listened to the evidence and listened to what she said that he understood that she hadn't consented. So, he was convinced by the evidence that the sex wasn't consensual.

No, he didn't say that. He said he understood she didn't believe she had consented at the same time that he believed what happened was consensual. What level/type of consent is required, and at what point does consent end? Again, more details are needed for his quote to be an admission of guilt. Had she consented to some of their encounter? If so, at what point does she believe she stopped consenting? Given the nature of the encounter at that time, might it be unclear that the victim no longer consented? How frequently must a person ask for consent during a sexual encounter?

If I close my eyes and start swinging my fists it's still called assault when I hit someone. Kobe didn't seek consent, he just took sex.

Does that apply to their whole encounter? Might other details about the case alter your conclusion?

 

[Gameface]

So if she doesn't believe she consented then what's the question? The only defense to that statement is that she is lying. If she doesn't believe she consented then she didn't consent. There's no way to get around that. The consent is 100% up to her, so if she didn't consent, if she "believes" she didn't consent and Kobe agrees that she didn't "believe" she consented then... she didn't consent.

Kobe's assumptions about her consent are meaningless. The fact that his point of view differs from hers is meaningless. What matters is whether or not she consented. Saying "no" is a withdrawal of any previous consent. Resiting at any point is a withdrawal of consent. Anything that happened without her consent is rape. It doesn't matter if Kobe sees it differently, what matters is if she gave her consent.

 

[Boris]

So if she doesn't believe she consented then what's the question? The only defense to that statement is that she is lying. If she doesn't believe she consented then she didn't consent. There's no way to get around that. The consent is 100% up to her, so if she didn't consent, if she "believes" she didn't consent and Kobe agrees that she didn't "believe" she consented then... she didn't consent.

Kobe's assumptions about her consent are meaningless. The fact that his point of view differs from his is meaningless. What matters is whether or not she consented. Saying "no" is a withdrawal of any previous consent. Resiting at any point is a withdrawal of consent. Anything that happened without her consent is rape. It doesn't matter if Kobe sees it differently, what matters is if she gave her consent.

Okay really guy. Because she does not BELIEVE she consented Kobe should have divined this in the heat or the moment?

I do not like your hindsight 20/20 indictment argument.

 

[Gameface]

Okay really guy. Because she does not BELIEVE she consented Kobe should have divined this in the heat or the moment?

I do not like your hindsight 20/20 indictment argument.

The word "believe" is completely superfluous. It's his way of trying to say this is all a matter of opinion, her opinion is that she was raped, Kobe's opinion is that it wasn't. Unfortunately for Kobe that's not how it works. If she "believes" she didn't consent then she didn't consent. The word "believe" is used to negate her lack of consent, as if she might actually be mistaken about her consent.

 

[Boris]

The word "believe" is completely superfluous. It's his way of trying to say this is all a matter of opinion, her opinion is that she was raped, Kobe's opinion is that it wasn't. Unfortunately for Kobe that's not how it works. If she "believes" she didn't consent then she didn't consent. The word "believe" is used to negate her lack of consent, as if she might actually be mistaken about her consent.

If she believed she was raped does not mean that she was not raped or that the rapist is guilty of rape.

 

[GVC]

So if she doesn't believe she consented then what's the question? The only defense to that statement is that she is lying. If she doesn't believe she consented then she didn't consent. There's no way to get around that. The consent is 100% up to her, so if she didn't consent, if she "believes" she didn't consent and Kobe agrees that she didn't "believe" she consented then... she didn't consent.

Kobe's assumptions about her consent are meaningless. The fact that his point of view differs from his is meaningless. What matters is whether or not she consented. Saying "no" is a withdrawal of any previous consent. Resiting at any point is a withdrawal of consent. Anything that happened without her consent is rape. It doesn't matter if Kobe sees it differently, what matters is if she gave her consent.

It'd be awesome if some of my questions were answered directly.

See the bolded. These details would certainly affect my judgment of Kobe's statement. In posting that, you've left open the possibility that she did consent (explicitly) to some of the encounter. Did she? If so, at what point does she believe she stopped consenting? Did she resist or say 'no'? Or did she simply stop 'actively' participating (still waiting for some clarification on this)? If the latter, could this not leave room for one to honestly believe there was still implicit/active consent? If so, would this still constitute rape AND would recognition of differences in perception still constitute an admission of guilt?

I'm trying to be very careful about talking about the responsibility of both partners in a sexual encounter. I'm also very sensitive about this issue for a variety of reasons (and not, as JG and others might believe/imply, because I've ever been accused or guilty of rape or any other sexual assault).

 

[Boris]

Also from your quote I might actually stop calling Kobe a rapist since it shows his deeply emotional character. It seems more likely to me now that he is trying to understand that poor woman's viewpoint enstead of simply saying **** her for attacking me w this rape ****. In fact I think he might have been the one offering a huge cash settlement out of court in hopes that the poor girl could afford some counseling out of it.

 

[GVC]

And I get that sometimes there may be less active participation by a woman in a long term relationship who is just trying to make her partner happy. Yes and No are the clues there.

Did she say 'no'? Had she at some point said 'yes'? You're grossly oversimplifying here.

I realize that guys like sleeping with drunk girls because consent is easier to get. But if she is too drunk to participate and say Yes, then it is rape.

Nice generalization. Bravo.