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Official Offseason Rumors Thread

NAOS said:
I'm not disagreeing with you here, but ****ing up and not making the playoffs this year has put the whole rebuild into some jeopardy. What happens if injuries strike again next year? What happens if we go out in the first round like a lamb? Hayward will walk, broseph. Walk. How's your rebuild look then?
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If we miss the playoffs next year this rebuild is in serious jepeordy. Then you trade players for picks and have a rough few years again. Or you do that this year and you are 1 year ahead on a new rebuild. That seems like a big risk to flush it down and rebuild again to get ahead 1 year. If injuries hit as bad next year, which is very unlikely, we are going to be a lot better off next year since hopefully the FO gets a little better depth since their goal is to win and make the playoffs next year, which it was not this year. By far the worst thing that happened to the Jazz last year was losing Exum for the season. Not because of the games he might have helped us win but because we were not allowed to see what level of player he is.
 
You can talk all you want about injuries, and I'll meet you with that the Jazz just played in the weakest Western Conference in, what, 15 years? 20? The Jazz even without Exum (who isn't and wasn't even that good) were right there. They underperformed. Period. No one in this organization should feel safe. And I like a lot of what the Jazz are doing. But this notion that we just have to keep waiting can be just as poisonous as constantly ****ing with the chemistry.

Again, my point is the Jazz losing Hayward for nothing would be a massive, massive blow, and the Jazz don't have the track-record to feel comfortable that the team will be good enough to make real noise all of a sudden. I'm also not suggesting trading Hayward just to get anything, but if you can get a top-5 pick for him? Yeah, I don't know, I'd do that.

Handlogten's Heroes made the best point to date about keeping Hayward; he's miserly as ****. My counter-argument though is he knows he only has so many more years to start making his career matter and win, and he simply hasn't been doing that here. He could also recoup some of the shortfall with endorsements for real companies.
 
NAOS said:
I'm not disagreeing with you here, but ****ing up and not making the playoffs this year has put the whole rebuild into some jeopardy. What happens if injuries strike again next year? What happens if we go out in the first round like a lamb? Hayward will walk, broseph. Walk. How's your rebuild look then?
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It's not my rebuild. I'm just about the simplest fan you're gonna meet. I want to watch basketball games and I want "my" team to win those games. I haven't got the slightest idea who Simmons is other than I hear his name here. If I wasn't on Jazzfanz I'd probably be like "what's FO mean?" So take my perspective for what little it's worth. I don't want to wait another 4 years for this team to be good. I don't care if they trade Hayward, he's like my sixth favorite player on the team. I just want something in return that means we are better next year, not several years from now.
 
For the record I am not opposed to trading Hayward, even though he is worth the Max. I am not opposed to trading any of our players as long as we get back a better player.
 
There is no reason for the Jazz to not throw a max offer at KD. I will be disappointed if they don't pursue him, regardless if they have much of a shot.
 
Broncster said:
How would this board view Hayward if we were a 5th seed this year and win the series against the Clips?

That scenario is more than likely if we have an average injury year. Or even if we have an average record in close games that are statistically luck who wins.

Is the best player on a team that is a 5th seed and the youngest team in the West worth a max contract in this market? Would Portland be looking to trade Lillard if he was going to be a FA after next season?

Hayward is 1 year older than Lillard he shot a better percentage and did score 5 less points but took 5 less shots a game. Hayward is a far superior defender to Lillard. Haywards team is much younger and has many less vets. Hayward was asked to do more for his team. Hayward played more minutes than Lillard for the season and on a per game basis. Hayward ran more miles in the season on the court. Haywards hobbled team that he lead only came up 4 games short of what Lillards did. Hayward is on the same level as Lillard. If you replace Hayward for Paul George, Lillard, Butler, Derozan, Dwayne Wade or Klay Thompson. Those teams probably win the same number of games.

Hayward is not even in my top 3 current favorite Jazz players but the hate on this board is unreal. Then he will have a good game and this board thinks he is MJ. We are so Bi-polar. Hayward is a top 20-25 player right now. Every team will have 1 or 2 max players. Yes it would be nice if our max player was a top 5-10 but we are not getting a player in that tier.
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Lillard and Hayward are not on the same tier. Lillard is one of the top assassins in the league. The difference between him and Curry is smaller than the difference between him and Hayward. Defense is included in that statement.
 
NAOS said:
Lillard and Hayward are not on the same tier. Lillard is one of the top assassins in the league. The difference between him and Curry is smaller than the difference between him and Hayward. Defense is included in that statement.
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Statistics disagree with that statement. As does W/L.
 
NAOS said:
not all statistics. You actually mean to say "the statistics I put my faith in...."
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Lets hear the ones "I dont put faith in" that support your theory. Maybe they will change my mind. I am not seeing any nor does my eye test show that but I have not watched more than about 20 Portland games this year.

So by your standard GS would have had pretty much the same season minus a few more losses this season if you swap Lillard for Curry?

How about the Jazz and Portland if you swap Hayward and Lillard? Jazz make the 5 seed and Portland misses the playoffs?
 
mellow said:
My eyes tell me Lillard>Hayward. But maybe my blast shield is down. If my eyes have deceived me and I should not trust them, what would you say I should trust?
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Eye test plus statistics is a good way to form your opinion. That is what I have done. I wont fault you for disagreeing with me. That is whats fun about opinions.

Plus I was saying that about Lillard being closer to Curry than Hayward is to Lillard.
 
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What team would be stupid enough to trade the #1 draft pick for a player they have rights to at most for a year?

If we are going to fantasize about inanities, lets go big. Hayward for Durant o_O
 
magic said:
What team would be stupid enough to trade the #1 draft pick for a player they have rights to at most for a year?

If we are going to fantasize about inanities, lets go big. Hayward for Durant o_O
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Because they are much less likely to sign him away from another team than they would be to retain him. It also may open up other FA signings if players see that instead of a rookie or future first round picks they have guys that are good at basketball that are somewhat proven. Hayward may not move the needle that much but neither of the top 2 guys are sure fire all-stars. They have potential to be better than Hayward but have a good chance they never get there.

I would not do it if I was them but it isn't the KD pipe dream.
 
Batman said:
Haha funny you mention Jeff Green. On Zach Lowe's podcast with Kevin Arnovitz, Zach and Kevin spend almost a minute talking about how every team that has made a move to get Jeff Green is fooled into thinking Jeff Green is good, then they get him on the team and realize he's not hahaha.

It's true. Jeff Green is not good.


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I just listened to the same podcast and immediately thought of the comment I made in this thread. lol
 
Broncster said:
Lets hear the ones "I dont put faith in" that support your theory. Maybe they will change my mind. I am not seeing any nor does my eye test show that but I have not watched more than about 20 Portland games this year.

So by your standard GS would have had pretty much the same season minus a few more losses this season if you swap Lillard for Curry?

How about the Jazz and Portland if you swap Hayward and Lillard? Jazz make the 5 seed and Portland misses the playoffs?
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You're extending my comment in some silly ways. And, I'm not the one that wants to rush right to statisics; that's you.

I'll say this, though: any statistical comparison between Hayward and Lillard has to come with some acknowledgment that Lillard literally bends an entire half-court defense with his offense; and since he has basically unlimited range, he starts bending that defense near the logo at half court. So, he has the statistical impact that he does, despite the fact that defenses are paying him that much attention (the comparisons to Curry start here). You're lying to yourself if you think Hayward has anywhere near that kind of impact. Do defenses make sure to account for him? Yes. But they don't go to nearly the same lengths..... because they don't have to. I'm pretty sure Lillard is better in transition, too, but Gordon is also very good.

And, added to that is the simple fact that Lillard is a straight-up killer. That edge, braugh. ****ing killer.
 
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NAOS said:
You're extending my comment in some silly ways. And, I'm not the one that wants to rush right to statisics; that's you.

I'll say this, though: any statistical comparison between Hayward and Lillard has to come with some acknowledgment that Lillard literally bends an entire half-court defense with his offense; and since he has basically unlimited range, he starts bending that defense near the logo at half court. So, he has the statistical impact that he does, despite the fact that defenses are paying him that much attention (the comparisons to Curry start here). You're lying to yourself if you think Hayward has anywhere near that kind of impact. Do defenses make sure to account for him? Yes. But they don't go to nearly the same lengths..... because they don't have to. I'm pretty sure Lillard is better in transition, too, but Gordon is also very good.

And, added to that is the simple fact that Lillard is a straight-up killer. That edge, braugh. ****ing killer.
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I'm not bending anything. I'm legitimately trying to get your opinion. Asking questions is a way to see your view, not bending it. You said there are some stats and I don't see them, I would like to if they exist. I do think defenses game plan and shift just as much towards Hayward. He is the sole focus of teams when they play the jazz. He is often double and triple teamed. I think I could buy an argument that he is slightly better, maybe he is but still in the same category as Hayward. I don't see Lillard as head and shoulders better and in the same category as Curry.

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fishonjazz said:
I disagree.
I think you have a level of really good players. Think hayward, tony parker, dirk, paul millsap, ibaka, mccollum, kemba walker, karl anthony towns, wiggins, etc. Then i think you have your low end all star type guys. Think jimmy butler, bosh, demar derozan, isiah thomas, kyle lowry, mike conley, klay thompson, tim duncan, kyrie irving (maybe he is in the star level even), etc. Then you have your star players. Think anthony davis, lillard, paul george, cp3, harden, westbrook, griffin, etc. Then you have superstars which is basically championship mvp type guys like kawhi, steph, lebron, and durant. Now you could definately have some guys get moved around a bit like maybe cp3 is a superstar, maybe current duncan (i was going off each player for this year only) should go down to only a really good player rather than low end all star and things like that.
But hayward doesn't belong with the star or superstar guys like the brow, dame dolla, cp3, westbrook, kawhi, steph, harden, etc etc.

we should always be trying to get one of those guys. Hayward will never be one of those guys imo. Maybe simmons will be though. You might be right that hayward is a top 30 guy in the league but that is not good enough for a teams #1 guy imo. We need to get a top 11 or 12 guy.
If we were in the playoffs then no matter who we matched up against the other team would have the best player in the game against us. If we played the spurs then leonard would be the best player in the series. If we played the warriors it would be curry. Thunder, durant. Clipps, cp3. Memphis, conley or gasol. Porland, lillard. dallas, Dirk (though i have hayward as being better than current dirk.. and dallas isn't a threat to anyone in the playoffs). Houston, harden.

Stars win playoff series. If hayward is our best and highest paid player then i dont see us winning any playoff series anytime soon cause we would always be playing a team in the playoffs with a bigger star on their team than hayward.
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I think you are one of the better posters on Jazzfanz, but I ardently disagree that Derozan is a tier higher than Hayward. Put Derozan on this team. We'd have won less games this year. Everything else, you may be right. But honestly, I think Hayward is on the same level as most of those tier 2 stars you named. We had a crazy young team and Favors and Gobert missed like 40% of the season combined. It's kind of amazing we won 40 games. Take Hayward off this team, we'd have won less than 30 games.


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